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Topic Title: Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands
Topic Summary: XXX under mouse and XXX upto here work well --- now how about optional enter?
Created On: 09/16/2022 05:02 PM
Status: Post and Reply
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 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 09/16/2022 05:02 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - kkkwj - 09/16/2022 07:44 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 09/16/2022 09:50 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 09/16/2022 10:02 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - kkkwj - 09/17/2022 01:27 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 09/17/2022 05:57 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - kkkwj - 09/17/2022 10:10 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - mdl - 09/18/2022 11:38 AM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 10/01/2022 08:07 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Edgar - 10/02/2022 10:37 AM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - ax - 10/02/2022 07:03 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Edgar - 10/03/2022 08:17 AM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 10/03/2022 09:05 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Edgar - 10/04/2022 09:37 AM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 10/03/2022 09:10 PM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Edgar - 10/04/2022 09:42 AM  
 Seek suggestions for naming generic X and go (or not) speech commands   - Ag - 10/05/2022 08:16 PM  
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 09/16/2022 05:02 PM
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Ag
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BRIEF:

 

 I seek suggestions, perhaps based on something you already do, or perhaps off the top your heads, or speech commands syntax to do xxx

 

 where you want  2 versions of each xxx command [Later in this thread I realized I want 3 versions]:

 

 the 1st which just navigates menus and fills in fields, and lets the user say "press enter" or the like to get the action actually performed

 

 the 2nd which navigates menus and fills  in fields and  commits the action via or whatever, so the user doesn'tNeed to slow down quite as much.

 

 and the 3rd version  which is whatever is the default of 1 or 2.

 

 

E.g.

"DRACO <.*> Then Ask"

"DRACO <.*> Just Do It"

"DRACO <.*>"   <-- [added later]

where <.*>  is the default action
but I find these versions clumsy and verbose, especially compared to the stuff that I'm already doing for such generic speech commands like "DRACO xxx  Under Mouse" and " DRACO xxx  Up to Here"
It's easy enough to code up such speech commands. I find coming up with the syntax, what you want the user to have to say, often to be more of a challenge.
Advice appreciated, especially if you've already got systems of speech commands like this.

 

---+ DETAIL

 

I am getting a lot of mileage out of my generic speech commands like
     "DRACO <.*> Under Mouse"
and
     "DRACO <.*> Upto Here"

 

Where <.*>  essentially is the equivalent of Dragon ,  except that I can put it in the middle  rather than just at the end (actually, the Dragon command is "DRACO ",  and then I have my own code  provide the more flexible parsing)

 

so I can apply this to just about any command,  e.g. it works on the currently selected refocused item,  and have "Under Mouse"  commands move the text focus to the current mouse position, "Upto Here" commands  extend the selection to the current mouse position

 

and then  once the text focus is set up I can execute any command <.*>.   Often by caling a completely separate speech command... usually by script, occasionally by  RecognitionMimic.

 

I like it that I don't have to list all of the possible commands in advance like "DRACO ",   so the commands that I'm passing in can also be after the "Under Mouse" etc  has been stripped. 

 

"DRACO Convert to <.*>"  is a similar generic command, although  and doesn't necessarily work with mouse but might work with named selections like line/word/...

 

anyway, these generic commands are very pleasant. They reduce the amount of code that I need to write, Clay just write the simple text/focus command and then I automatically get the under mouse and extended selection versions, and they greatly facilitate having consistent speech commands syntax.

 

(BTW,  when I am lucky I just code up  "DRACO <.*>", and automatically have my meta-commands redispatch "DRACO <.*> UNDER MOUSE" to "DRACO <.*>".   (Usually  I map mouse to text selection/caret, because the latter is  easiest control via keyboard commands.)   But when this automatic mapping does not work  I just use these as patterns for naming the commands.)

 

I would like to do another sort of generic speech  meta-command:

 

A surprisingly large number of my speech commands basically  navigate through some hierarchical menus,  selecting items and/or filling in fields, and then finally give the user the choice of accepting what has been done,  typically by saying "press enter" or "click OK" or the like,  or not.  

 

e.g.  I just wrote paragraph style commands for OneNote, e.g. "DRACO paragraph style heading(#)/ title/normal/...".    or " DRACO  round/square/triangle/... bullets"  for PowerPoint or OneNote

 

 oftentimes I just want to say "give me a  :-) bullet, I don't need confirmation"

 

but sometimes I want confirmation. Typically in cases where the application menu system does not provide a way for me to reliably ensure that I get what I want when I say name X.   so in such cases I tend to  do my best guess at selecting X, but I don't want to have my script  press enter in case things have gone wrong.

 

 (And in general I am starting to try to use UIA to make my code even more robust in such cases)

anyway, I frequently find that I want at least 2 versions of the same command:

 

1)  " asked before doing" -  selecting what I think/hope is the right thing, but giving the user the ability to confirm or cancel

 

2)  "fire and forget", for when I'm so confident that I'm in the right place that I can just have my script press {enter}  or the like

 

 I can write the code to do this.

 

 What I'm asking for help in is with respect to how to name these commands in a consistent way

E.g. I could  define speech commands like:

"DRACO <.*> Then Ask"

"DRACO <.*> Just Do It"

where "DRACO <.*>"  is the default, which may or may not ask depending on what  my typical use case is.

 

 But I don't find this pleasing. I like to find some nice short phrases that are comfortable say.

"DRACO <.*> Then Press Enter"

...

 

oftentimes writing the code is easy enough, it's figuring out the speech command syntax, the thing that you want the user to say, that's a pain

 



-------------------------

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 09/16/2022 07:44 PM
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kkkwj
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To me, it is obvious that your syntax should be "DRACO ..." and "DRACO force ...". I have thousands of commands defined in a similar "prefix first" way. It makes it easy for Dragon to recognize them (DRACO prefix) and enables your AHK/script parser to strip the left prefix words and then share code for the remainder of the command. You could also put the modifier words on the tail end like you do in your examples above. I have some commands like that, but I don't like them as well because they end up messing up the parse (and the command) if I run out of breath at the end of the command. In those cases, Dragon doesn't give the parser the correct syntax, the parser doesn't recognize the trailing phrase, and the parser includes the trailing phrase in the command action words (as if there was no trailing phrase at all).

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 09/16/2022 09:50 PM
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Ag
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Originally posted by: kkkwj To me, it is obvious that your syntax should be "DRACO ..." and "DRACO force ...". I have thousands of commands defined in a similar "prefix first" way. It makes it easy for Dragon to recognize them (DRACO prefix) and enables your AHK/script parser to strip the left prefix words and then share code for the remainder of the command. You could also put the modifier words on the tail end like you do in your examples above. I have some commands like that, but I don't like them as well because they end up messing up the parse (and the command) if I run out of breath at the end of the command. In those cases, Dragon doesn't give the parser the correct syntax, the parser doesn't recognize the trailing phrase, and the parser includes the trailing phrase in the command action words (as if there was no trailing phrase at all).

 

All good points, and like you I've tried both. 1 of the nice things about AutoHotKey  is that I am not just limited to prefixes as one is with the Dragon <dictation>, but I can use suffixes and even  infix and multi-fix, to the extent of a single breath. Under course I share code.

 

 However, I have not liked

 

DRACO <...>  -->  ask the user for confirmation

and

DRACO FORCE <...> -->  don't require an confirmation

 

 oftentimes not requiring confirmation is reliable enough or easy enough to recover from that I want DRACO <...>  to be the nonconfirmation form. Or rather, to be a nonconfirmation form --- I will always provide the  confirmation form as well.

 

 

 

 I suppose 1 of the things I'm asking is a suggestion for what is a nice way to say

 the following are too clumsy

DRACO ASK FOR  CONFIRMATION <...> 

DRACO CAREFULLY <...>

(as in "DRACO CAREFULLY delete files  bypassing Recycle Bin")

DRACO ASK <...>

DRACO CHECK <...>

 heck, the number of syllables is a pain.  I would use different prefixes, say

DRACHECK <...>  <--  check before committing

DRAFO <...>  <--- force, no check

DRAGO <...> <--- default, whether check or force, depending...

if I could think what those prefixes might be (small, easy to pronounce, not misrecognized frequently)

 

You might ask why I am so worried about number of syllables, when I'm willing to deal with

DRACO <...> UNDER MOUSE

DRACO <...> UP TO MOUSE

 which are much more verbose

 

 

 I confess I actually misled or oversimplified under/upto mouse  were my original versions, but now I have boiled them down to

 

DRACO <...> TO MOUSE
=> DRACO <...> HERE

DRACO <...> UP TO MOUSE

=> DRACO <...> TO HERE

 I keep both the long and short forms, because sometimes  one works, i.e. Dragon recognizes one, whereas  it does not recognize the other. No matter how much training or exposure of Dragon ListVars I do.

 

 I don't like these extra syllables, but it's the best I've done, and I'm reasonably happy with them.

 

 Also, I can remember "UNDER/UPTO MOUSE"  much better than I can seem to remember ASK/FORCE.  I find "just do it" easier to remember, but what too verbose.  With "FORCE"  I keep getting confused as to what I am forcing. Especially since frequently the commands are saying "yes,  overwrite the existing file" -  i.e. there is the  confirmation of the choice of action, and a separate confirmation of the actual action once chosen. Perhaps that's been part of my trouble. Perhaps I should use the force ( sorry, could not resist),  or rather merge to instances of forced together. But of course I want to do this without  requiring the command invoked to be redesigned to work in context.

 

I conjecture that  the extra verbosity in such mouse actions is more tolerable because usually they are replacing  something like a right-click to get a context menu followed by selecting using the mouse. Something which already involves more muscle movements.

 

 whereas the things that I want to use these simple DRACO xxx AND GO or DRACO FORCE xxx commands  tend to be more frequent, much more like a quick keyboard shortcut.

Like "DRACO bullet" or "DRACO highlight" for text editing.

 I.e. what they are replacing is 1-4 key clicks, plus possibly a few shift/control/alt modifiers. Rather than a right-click and  menu selection.    And  I think  that UI research has shown that 4 to 6 key clicks beat a mouse click and scrolling in a 12 entry menu ---  assuming of course  that you can remember what the keyboard shortcut is.   i.e. keyboard shortcuts are faster than mice and menus,  except less discoverable. And I want my speech commands to be more efficient than typing. Or rather, I doubt that my speech commands will ever be more efficient than typing was when I did not suffer such bad computeritis pain. But I don't want them to be any slower than they need to be.

 

 

 

 

 



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 09/16/2022 10:02 PM
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Ag
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Thanks for suggesting "DRACO FORCE <...>" @kkkwj. It's one of the best suggestions I have seen/heard. It sounds scarily emphatixc to me, but short is good.


Maybe "DRACO QUICK <...>"


Also 1 syllable, but doesn't sound quite so scary. But also a bit dishonest - sometimes these operations are not quick at all. I'll say the command, and then watch menus flash, dialog boxes pop up, and fields get filled in for a minute or so, crossing my fingers that nothing goes wrong (like a focus stealing popup...)


What about the converse - a nice 1 syllable way of saying "DRACO, be extra careful doing this?"



---


BTW, I have no problem disabling the FORCE/QUICK/unsafe version if necessary, or mapping it to the slow/confirmation-seeking version.

I just like having the choice...


e.g. I say a command "DRACO foobar".

something goes wrong, so I say "UNDO" and then "DRACO CAREFULLY DO foobar".

Asking for confirmation at a lot more steps.



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 09/17/2022 01:27 PM
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kkkwj
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Hi Ag, although I used 'force' in my example, I did not mean to imply that was the best word. Pick any syllable you like. My main point was to have two forms of the command, DRACO and DRACO KEYWORD . In my setup, dragon only has to recognize DRACO (one keyword) to pass the whole line of text to my code. Then I can do anything I want with it, parse N variations of the command (such as you seem to like for a "natural language" experience), or whatever. Kim Patch argues that it is more difficult cognitively to remember N variations because they never force you to learn and remember a single variation. I don't think I have any variations in my 2000 or so commands. No two commands have the same meaning.

On your force/no force commands, you seem to need two CLASSES of commands (confirm/force or not), which is why I suggested the syntax that I did. That way, you don't have to remember variations of the part that follows the confirm/force keyword. Drago routes the command to AHK, confirm/force/etc define CLASSES of commands with confirm/force behaviors, and the remaining words define the command actions.

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 09/17/2022 05:57 PM
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Ag
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Originally posted by: kkkwj Hi Ag, although I used 'force' in my example, I did not mean to imply that was the best word. Pick any syllable you like.

I thought as much, but I could only reply to  your suggestion since my question is about what such a syllable might be.

 i.e. I am looking for help choosing such a syllable, which I call designing the command syntax.

 

My main point was to have two forms of the command, DRACO and DRACO KEYWORD

 agreed, although I go further:

 I often want to have 3 forms of the command:

 

DRACO ASK-FOR-CONFIRMATION ...

DRACO DO NOT ASK FOR CONFIRMATION

and then simple default

DRACO ...

so that when I use the default and I am annoyed either because it didn't ask for confirmation and I realized I needed it, or vice versa, I can then explicitly say

This is only 3 forms of the command, but all the code is shared, with a flag or additional hidden parameter indicating  confirmation = ask/don't/default

 

 



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 09/17/2022 10:10 PM
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kkkwj
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Maybe 

Draco do ...

draco don't ...

draco ...

or

draco yes ...
draco no ...
draco ...

I would pick some opposite/contrasting words yes/no, force/free, ask/don't, etc.



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 09/18/2022 11:38 AM
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mdl
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i mostly see this with shell commands. What I do:
the base command types the commend but doesn't type enter. you can say slap (for enter) separately after checking or editing.
for speed, i allow adding the slap directly to the base command.
that is, the actual command is more like <base>  [(slap={enter})] = $1$2; where of course <base>  is often non trivial.
this has the advantage of omitting an existing pause rather than altering the command words, which is easier to remember
i don't know if this would work for UI stuff, though.



 10/01/2022 08:07 PM
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Ag
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Thanks, @kkkwj: I like the opposite/contrasting suggestion. I will try, and report after a while.


Thanks @mdl: "Slap" for "enter" is interesting. Certainly it's shorter than "press enter". I wonder how much I say it normal speech. "slap down". "SLAPP sawsuit". "slap in the face"... all phrases that are probably easily distinguished from "slap" in isolation.


I have noticed as I have been playing around with this that confirmation is not just "press enter at the end". There are quite a few compound commands where I have confirm and no-confirm variants - e.g. "DRACO Export Dragon Stuff", where I export vocabulary/custom words .xml, .txt, and Dragon commands. If the stars align they'll get saved in the right place, but until I am correctly parsing the dialog boxes things might get saved in incorrect places, based on history => I want the careful requiring confirmation versions.


Q: are there any other command syntax patterns, or tricks like "slap-->{enter}" that you have found useful?


again, I find "slap-->{enter}" interesting. a nice single syllable word, somewhat reminiscent of "{enter}", but shorter, and one that I suspect I don't use that often in normal speech.


I am tempted to look through the dictionary for single syllable words...


Also, I am tempted to look for such short one or two syllable syllable words in languages other than English. Probably not my 2nd main language, French, but possibly the languages that I'm somewhat but not overly familiar with, like Japanese, German, and Chinese. Dragon's language model may have trouble with them. But I really do like it when my command words make sense to me, in some language if not my main language.



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 10/02/2022 10:37 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: Ag  I am tempted to look for such short one or two syllable syllable words in languages other than English.[…] I really do like it when my command words make sense to me, in some language if not my main language.

While I lean the other direction when it comes to short versus long (but vocal strain is starting to rear its ugly head), I use French, Spanish and, to a much lesser degree Chinese in my command names.

 

Take this as an example… I wrote a C# application which rummage is through all of the open File (Windows) Explorer Windows (recursively) looking to open the requested folder/file. Obviously, "open <dictation>" clashes dramatically with the sense of this command. I decided to go with the French equivalent "ouvre" (ignoring both grammar and letter accents). Not unsurprisingly, this word was not in my Dragon® general large dictionary. 

 

I opened the Vocabulary Editor and chose the "Add…" button; thereafter adding "ouvre" as a new word. Typically I would just accept whatever "Spoken form" happened when I dictated into that field But in this case I went with actually spelling out the word and then training it.



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-Edgar
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 10/02/2022 07:03 PM
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ax
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@Ag and Edgar: Didn't know you 2 are such polyglots!  Probably does come in handy.  Meanwhile, my hands are still full in trying to get DMO to acknowledge the "American" I am whispering into its ear. 

 

Well in my DMO, the only available language is: "English (United States)".

At least the present all-caring administration vowed not to rest until I am rescued from "chauvinism"!  But who's gonna rescue me after mid-term?



 10/03/2022 08:17 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: ax

Well in my DMO, the only available language is: "English (United States)". 

I doubt that the language model is actually restrictive. Try creating a nonsense word that is definitely not "English" - zotz is a good example.



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-Edgar
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 10/03/2022 09:05 PM
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Ag
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Originally posted by: Edgar ... "open " clashes ... I decided to go with the French equivalent "ouvre" (ignoring both grammar and letter accents). Not unsurprisingly, this word was not in my Dragon® general large dictionary. //
I opened the Vocabulary Editor and chose the "Add..." button; thereafter adding "ouvre" as a new word. Typically I would just accept whatever "Spoken form" happened when I dictated into that field But in this case I went with actually spelling out the word and then training it.


What was the spoken form you use for "ouvre"? I assume you did not spell it out O U V R E, but had some sort of pronunciation. I can't seem to find a reasonably good English pseudo-phonetic spelling for French "ouvre" and many similar words where the French treatment of the last syllable is problematic in English.

BTW, this prompted me to make them more generic post https://www.knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=36797&highlight_key=y



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 10/04/2022 09:37 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: Ag
Originally posted by: Edgar ... "open " clashes ... I decided to go with the French equivalent "ouvre" (ignoring both grammar and letter accents). Not unsurprisingly, this word was not in my DragonĀ® general large dictionary. // I opened the Vocabulary Editor and chose the "Add..." button; thereafter adding "ouvre" as a new word. Typically I would just accept whatever "Spoken form" happened when I dictated into that field But in this case I went with actually spelling out the word and then training it.
What was the spoken form you use for "ouvre"? I assume you did not spell it out O U V R E, but had some sort of pronunciation. I can't seem to find a reasonably good English pseudo-phonetic spelling for French "ouvre" and many similar words where the French treatment of the last syllable is problematic in English.

I actually did spell out the word by saying "press..." one letter at a time. I then trained just as if I were saying "Open the door!" ("Ouvre la porte!") in French. I'm not very good at phonetics - ooh (rhymes with you) v ( very short as in victory) ray.

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-Edgar
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 10/03/2022 09:10 PM
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Ag
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BTW, I am looking for other words for Dragon,  or common names for dragons in literature,  so that I could merge the syntactic pattern with the prefix. 

 

I might use DRACO for force and DRAGO for non force,  but I find  that my pronunciation of Draco is often recognized as Drago and vice versa.

 

and it was hard enough to arrive at Draco/Drago  as my prefixes, after taking a tour of literary dragons like Puff and Smaug

 

 

 



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 10/04/2022 09:42 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: Ag BTW, I am looking for other words for Dragon,  […]

 

I might use DRACO for force and DRAGO for non force,  but I find  that my pronunciation of Draco is often recognized as Drago and vice versa.

 

Personally, if I were not already using "Puff" (which I blatantly stole from you) for my C# statement constructor I would probably go with Draco/Drago for the forceful prefix and use Puff for the non-forceful. I will probably steal Draco as well <grin>!



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-Edgar
DPI 15.3, 64-bit Windows 10 Pro, OpenOffice & Office 365, Norton Security, Shure X2U XLR to USB mic adapter with Audio Technica DB135 vocal mic, Asus X299-Deluxe Prime, Intel Core i9-7940X (14 core, 4.3 GHz overclocked to 4.9 GHz), G.SKILL TridentZ Series 64GB (4 x 16GB) DDR4 3333 (PC4 26600) F4-3333C16Q-64GTZ, NVIDIA GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 1060 GV-N1060G1 GAMING-6GD REV 2.0 6GB graphics card with 3 1920x1080 monitors

 10/05/2022 08:16 PM
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Ag
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Originally posted by: Edgar 

 

Personally, if I were not already using "Puff" (which I blatantly stole from you) for my C# statement constructor I would probably go with Draco/Drago for the forceful prefix and use Puff for the non-forceful. I will probably steal Draco as well !

 

Unfortunately, while I like "Puff"  (and it greatly amuses me), I find that it is too frequently misrecognized, often  completely eliminated,  hence  by switch to Draco/Drago.

I conjecture that  my pronunciation of "Puff"  is too much like a literal puff of breath.

I use both Draco and Drago as prefixes, with the same purpose, because I often find one works in the other doesn't.

Hmm...  Drogon, Dracon, Drogan, ...   

 

 



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