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Topic Title: Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?
Topic Summary: Reviews of these products compared?
Created On: 12/17/2020 01:39 PM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - android94301 - 12/17/2020 01:39 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Lunis Orcutt - 12/17/2020 05:34 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/17/2020 08:42 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Lunis Orcutt - 12/18/2020 11:07 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/19/2020 11:56 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - gasolo - 12/19/2020 08:41 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Tiger Feet - 12/18/2020 12:48 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Kelray - 12/18/2020 02:06 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Tiger Feet - 12/18/2020 02:19 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Kelray - 12/18/2020 03:01 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Kelray - 12/18/2020 04:44 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - tar - 12/18/2020 06:39 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - tar - 12/18/2020 03:10 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - tar - 12/18/2020 03:11 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - kkkwj - 12/18/2020 09:38 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Tiger Feet - 12/20/2020 09:44 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/20/2020 08:25 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - MDH - 12/20/2020 08:47 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/20/2020 08:55 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - monkey8 - 12/21/2020 01:30 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - lifeisgood - 12/21/2020 06:20 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Scribe - 12/21/2020 06:57 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - lifeisgood - 12/27/2020 07:53 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Tiger Feet - 12/22/2020 05:20 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/22/2020 10:04 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - TomDonovan - 12/22/2020 12:17 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/22/2020 12:46 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Ag - 12/22/2020 02:32 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/22/2020 03:34 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/22/2020 04:53 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/22/2020 05:42 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - ax - 12/23/2020 02:18 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/23/2020 02:32 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - kkkwj - 12/23/2020 11:18 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - ax - 12/24/2020 12:50 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - MDH - 12/24/2020 10:43 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - R. Wilke - 12/24/2020 11:48 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - dilligence - 12/24/2020 01:08 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Ag - 12/24/2020 04:02 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - ax - 12/26/2020 10:12 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - kkkwj - 12/24/2020 12:11 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - ax - 12/26/2020 11:09 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - kkkwj - 12/29/2020 03:51 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Scribe - 12/28/2020 07:10 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - lifeisgood - 12/28/2020 10:46 PM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - Scribe - 12/29/2020 11:58 AM  
 Dragon Capture versus SP 6 Standard or SP 6 Pro?   - gasolo - 12/29/2020 07:07 PM  
Keyword
 12/17/2020 01:39 PM
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android94301
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Has anyone used all of these products? I've been using the trial version of Dragon capture and am trying to decide between buying it or buying SP 6 which has a similar capture module, plus other features. 

 

Would love to hear objective opinions and reviews, not from the proprietors of these products.

Thank you!

 12/17/2020 05:34 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We have used SP Pro 6 and DragonCapture but we also market DragonCapture so you might consider taking our recommendation with a grain of salt. 

 

Both utilities include unique features. SP Pro seems to include everything but the kitchen sink but maintains its agility and offers many useful features. DragonCapture is primarily a one trick pony but it's a very cool trick. DragonCapture has a few tricks of its own but our favorite feature is its fully automatic capture and release feature. Dragon's Dictation Box can automatically intercept your text, which even SP Pro cannot do but DragonCapture cannot only capture your text, it can deposit your text into the target application when you take a breath (stop dictating). From the end-user point of view, you are simply directly dictating in any non-Dragon friendly or friendly environment. DragonCapture is the only fully automatic Dictation Box on the market.

 

By comparison SP Pro cannot capture your dictation without using a trigger command and cannot automatically deposit your text but… It has a ton of impressive features which we will let dilligence explain. We recommend trialing both of these utilities. You will find trials in our signature tag. DragonCapture's weakness is editing because you have already transferred your text. Of course there is an option to review/rewrite/edit your text before transferring but you can already have that capability in Dragon's Dictation Box. That's why we recommend trying both utilities. We all work differently and what works well for us isn't necessarily the best choice for you.



-------------------------

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 12/17/2020 08:42 PM
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dilligence
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Sorry for chiming in. I typically meant to stay out of this thread. But since the main distributor and promoter of DragonCapture (and much appreciated owner of this forum) comes up with a recommendation then hopefully I'm entitled to give some feedback on it . You can of course take my response "with a grain of salt" as well (needless to say Herr Wilke, developer of DC can feel free to chime in).

 

"SP Pro seems to include everything but the kitchen sink"

 

Wouldn't be my choice of words but it's certainly true that SP 6 Standard alone is 10 times more powerful than DC and SP 6 PRO cannot even begin to compare.

 

"By comparison SP Pro cannot capture your dictation without using a trigger command and cannot automatically deposit your text"

 

Sorry to burst the bubble but this is no longer true . SP can actually do both semi automatic launching and automatic relaunching once the box has been launched. 

 

Just take a glimpse at the Auto Box video and Quiet Box. Launch them once and they will keep on loading and transferring automatically. However Auto Box has a very special trick of its own: a unique combination of Auto Transfer and full Select-and-Say control.

And that really is a first

 

A note on Auto Pasting/Auto Transfer.

 

Perhaps the best-kept secret on this forum is that any kind of auto pasting/transfer is only as good as its correction possibilities. No, not even that...

 

Never forget that any kind of correction you need to do afterwards while using auto pasting/auto transfer typically involves more steps than saying a simple "DB" to launch the most powerful dictation box ever that offers full Select-and-Say/Proofreading control (and a gazillion additional options) for any dictation that entails more than one or two sentences. 

 

I think it's important to keep that in mind.

 

Almost forgot, we weren't in a rush to come up with the SP 6 PRO demo but this thread has motivated us to speed up the process. The demo will be ready within two weeks 



-------------------------


Auto Box© Demo now available



 12/18/2020 11:07 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Originally posted by: dilligence  SP 6 Standard alone is 10 times more powerful than DC and SP 6 PRO cannot even begin to compare.

 

Sorry to burst the bubble but this is no longer true . SP can actually do both semi automatic launching and automatic relaunching once the box has been launched. 

 

Never forget that any kind of correction you need to do afterwards while using auto pasting/auto transfer typically involves more steps than saying a simple "DB" to launch the most powerful dictation box ever that offers full Select-and-Say/Proofreading control (and a gazillion additional options) for any dictation that entails more than one or two sentences. 

 

 

No argument about SP Pro 6 including hundreds of features that are not available in DragonCapture but that's not why it was created. DragonCapture was created for those who simply wish to efficiently dictate into non-Dragon friendly environments. That's it.

 

Only DragonCapture features true fully automatic dictation. Even saying that SP Pro is semiautomatic is a bit of a stretch. 

 

With the SP Pro Auto Box you have to begin by saying Auto Box to open it. We noted no capability to simultaneously open the Auto Box and dictate, like the KnowBrainer Notepad <dictation> command (which actually is semiautomatic) or better yet, Neither Dragon's Dictation Box or DragonCapture require a trigger command or need to be opened separately. Dragon's Dictation Box is truly semi automatic while DragonCapture is fully automatic.

 

We tend to think of DragonCapture as a one trick pony but you can verbally disable the AutoPaste feature so that it can be used for Select-&-Say editing, like Auto Box. Of course, unlike Auto Box, you don't have to open DragonCapture 1st.

 

We noted a couple of Auto Box potential problems for your considerations. 

 

1. Why make Period your transfer command? What happens when a phrase ends in a question-mark? Our 1st recommendation would be to rename your Period command to something like Transfer. You are not saving any time when you have to pause before saying Period. This is not really considered to be good speech recognition etiquette and could wind up becoming a habit everywhere else. 

 

2. Why do you have to open the Auto Box with a separate command before dictating? This is a two-step process that should only require one step; to justify a semiautomatic claim. Even in KnowBrainer we can simultaneously open Notepad and dictate “My dog has fleas” by saying Notepad <my dog has fleas>



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Change "No" to "Know" w/KnowBrainer 2020
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 12/19/2020 11:56 AM
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dilligence
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I think fully automatic and semi-automatic can be confusing terms. I think the Dragon dictation box is the only fully automatic solution with Select-and-Say control. Maybe it’s a matter of interpretation?

 

Anyway, I believe there are actually three different concepts featured in SP:

 

1. semi automatic launching

2. semi automatic relaunching

3. automatic relaunching

 

1. Semi automatic launching of the dictation box using a trigger word like the Speak <dictation> command. These (Power) commands have been featured in SP since the very  early editions.

 

2. The SP Transport function is an example of semi automatic relaunching: the box Transfers and automatically reopens. In SP PRO the Transport feature intelligently detects punctuation.

 

3. Automatic relaunching, which is currently featured as Adjustable Auto Transfer in AIO DB (SP PRO) and as standard behavior in Auto Box (SP Standard) and Quiet Box (SP PRO). The box continuously relaunches/stays open.

 

“Even in KnowBrainer we can simultaneously open Notepad and dictate “My dog has fleas” by saying Notepad <my dog has fleas>"

 

It's indeed a good idea to add semi automatic launching to Auto Box/Auto Messaging Box as well. I actually forgot that, will add it to the next SP Standard update.

 

"We tend to think of DragonCapture as a one trick pony but you can verbally disable the AutoPaste feature so that it can be used for Select-&-Say editing"

 

I don't think many people will prefer DC with its AutoPaste feature disabled. I think it's obvious to anyone who watches the All-In-One DB video or Quiet Box video that SP is far more superior when it comes to that kind of use.

 

"Why make Period your transfer command? What happens when a phrase ends in a question-mark? Our 1st recommendation would be to rename your Period command to something like Transfer. You are not saving any time when you have to pause before saying Period."

 

I’m afraid it’s a little more sophisticated than that. Period is not really a transfer command the box just responds to it, just like it responds to a question mark or exclamation point (no Dragon scripting involved here). So there isn’t any “pausing” involved either.

 

If you think about it. What's usually the moment people transfer their dictation? Most likely not in the middle of a sentence but more likely after issuing a punctuation mark. They were going to say these punctuation marks anyway only this time it automatically transfers their dictation to the target.

 

Auto Box is sort of a hybrid, a productive mix of Auto Transfer and true Select-and-Say control. I use it all the time (it's really an all-in-one solution because it does not depend on switching to a different mode or anything like that). You will never have to say "Transfer" again but at the same time you maintain 100% Select-and-Say capability to properly edit your dictation before sending it to the target.

 

I think it's important to realize that immediate AutoTransfers (like in DB and Quiet Box) or AutoPasting as in DC are prone to mistakes because you don't get a chance to correct your dictation. And you really need almost 100% Dragon accuracy (which nobody has).

Auto Box gives you a very interesting alternative I think.

 

On a side note, autotransfer/pasting may be somewhat overrated in general. Like I said earlier, correcting just one autopaste/transfer error usually involves more actions then having to call up a manual dictation box in the first place. What if there were two errors?

 

If you are dictating more than one or two sentences you’re probably better off using a full-featured dictation box. Unless perhaps if you have 100% accuracy. 



-------------------------


Auto Box© Demo now available



 12/19/2020 08:41 PM
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gasolo
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For me, SP Pro was a game changer because it would not be productive not to have a great shot at editing in a big roomy easy to see box. I use two main things with SP pro. If I am dictating into Outlook, I almost always use the quiet box in invisibility mode. if I dictate longer messages like this post, I hotkey and open DB and then say, "spokentransfer"That places the text in the destination and reads it back in one shot. It really works well.



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GaSolo

 12/18/2020 12:48 PM
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Tiger Feet
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Rob,

When is your 30 day trial coming soon? What does 'soon' mean and when?

You have obviously put in some hard work looking at your products and the videos look great. The 30 day trial would be the icing on the cake. Everybody else is doing it so come on Rob, let's have that trial so we can try it for ourselves before buying.

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone

 12/18/2020 02:06 PM
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Kelray
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I have been using SP 6 Pro for a while now I have to say I am quite impressed with the many features it has. To try and learn them all at once can be quite overwhelming. I think there are modules that will be useful to some people and not at all to other people. It is all in each individual's needs. I have never tried Dragon capture so I cannot comment on how the 2 compare. I really like using the SP editor and the DB boxes. I haven't had much of occasion to use the auto box, but what I have I have found it very useful. I also find that the quick store features come in quite handy at times also. In my opinion the price for the purchase of the program is well worth it. I can say that in the occasion that I have had a problem with the program this customer service has been very good.

 12/18/2020 02:19 PM
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Tiger Feet
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Nice review Kelray, so why can't we try it ourselves in a trial period?

SpeechStart +, KnowBrainer 2017, Dragon Capture all do this feature. Then the public can decide for themselves.

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone

 12/18/2020 03:01 PM
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Kelray
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I cannot comment on why he does not have a free preview as of yet, but I see from his message above he expects to have a free preview within a couple weeks.

 12/18/2020 04:44 PM
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Kelray
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I just remembered when I 1st bought speechproductivity a 30 day moneyback guarantee was offered. I believe that is still in effect. It is not exactly a free preview, but it still gives you 30 days to decide if you like the program or not. I wish you luck with whatever program you end up deciding to use.

 12/18/2020 06:39 PM
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tar
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The money back guarantee is still in effect, no questions asked. 



-------------------------

Tom


 


programmer for: http://speechproductivity.eu/

 12/18/2020 03:10 PM
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tar
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We been working on one more product that we wanted to include in the main package before the releasing the trial version. We believe it is a significant tool that can be useful to many.

We certainly appreciate the positive remarks about the products. We have spent a long time working on them.

Personally, I totally agree with the previous comment regarding the fact that there many tools that will be useful to you while others not so much. We just wanted to provide all of our significant tools in one package. As I stated before to others, it usually is better to have more tools at your disposal than less. Certainly, take the tools that work for you and don't worry so much about the others. Maybe they'll be of use later as you learn more the features.

-------------------------

Tom


 


programmer for: http://speechproductivity.eu/

 12/18/2020 03:11 PM
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tar
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By the way, the trial version should be out within two weeks!

 



-------------------------

Tom


 


programmer for: http://speechproductivity.eu/



 12/18/2020 09:38 PM
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kkkwj
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Even _more_ tools in the new trial? I'm looking forward to them! I think SP Pro is a superb deal. And I vouch for the "no questions asked" policy too, which I exercised long, long ago before Rob moved to the C#/Visual Studio platform. I was very pleased with his "no hassle" attitude and fast customer service. If other software manufacturers were as good, it would be a better world.

-------------------------

Win10/x64, AMD Ryzen 7 3700X, 64GB RAM, Dragon 15.3, SP 6 PRO, SpeechStart, Office 365, KB 2017, Dragon Capture, Samson Meteor USB Desk Mic, Klim and JUKSTG earbuds with microphones, 3 BenQ 2560x1440 monitors, Microsoft Sculpt Keyboard and fat mouse

 12/20/2020 09:44 AM
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Tiger Feet
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I know Rob and he is a lovely fellow. I have seen his videos where he sings with his girlfriend so I know his presentation is first class. I have no doubt that the software is worth having.

However, you would not buy a car without checking it over first. I would always want to check it over first for myself with a free trial. That would give me peace of mind as the other sellers who are selling their wares do.

Reviews are great but if he is doing a 30-day free trial, that is better. If you like the software after 30 days, then you part with your $89,

I would like to try it so I will wait the two weeks when he does give out a free 30-day trial.

With the number of features in it, I would probably need 30 days to get familiar with them all.

No offence to Rob and his partners, just my view.

Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone



 12/20/2020 08:25 PM
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dilligence
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Originally posted by: Tiger Feet I know Rob and he is a lovely fellow. I have seen his videos where he sings with his girlfriend so I know his presentation is first class.

 

 

Yep, that would be me. Here's another one (without my girlfriend). It's got quite some views and likes on YouTube. My version of Garth Brooks's - Face to Face (I'm a fan, I think you'll like it too):

 

 

 

 

Thanks for mentioning (three times, so far) that you would love to see the demo. 

 

Your patience will be rewarded (within 10 days). We are just tying up some loose ends and adding last-minute changes.

 

You're right though, most people will need much more than 30 days to get acquainted with all SP 6 PRO program features. Therefore we will not include all of them, That would be too stressful .

 

I've got some tough decisions to make in the next couple of days...



-------------------------


Auto Box© Demo now available



 12/20/2020 08:47 PM
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MDH
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I'm impressed!!!

 

You might think about recruiting Lunis into your band.

 

MDH



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 12/20/2020 08:55 PM
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dilligence
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I'm pretty sure Lunis can keep a tune as well :-).

 

If I remember correctly he posted something musical from his previous career a while back.

 

Time for a re-post!



-------------------------


Auto Box© Demo now available

 12/21/2020 01:30 PM
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monkey8
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Originally posted by: android94301 Has anyone used all of these products? I've been using the trial version of Dragon capture and am trying to decide between buying it or buying SP 6 which has a similar capture module, plus other features. 

 

 

 

Would love to hear objective opinions and reviews, not from the proprietors of these products. Thank you!

 

 

mmm!



-------------------------

 12/21/2020 06:20 PM
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lifeisgood
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I really love SpeechProductivity. It has saved me much frustration when dictating into big documents. It gives me the control that I need and is so easy to use. I would recommend it to anyone. The price is very reasonable!
 12/21/2020 06:57 PM
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Scribe
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lifeisgood: I too often have to dictate into big documents, and I wondered if you might be able to answer a question for me. How does it work if you are trying to dictate into endnotes in a giant document? If you wait long enough Microsoft Word will deliver what you have dictated into the note, so what happens if you use SpeechProductivity? Does it take over the operation because it reacts faster or what?

(PS: I would need SpeechProductivity rather than Dragon Capture because I require special formatting such as italics and often must correct to achieve absolute accuracy.)

-------------------------

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 12/27/2020 07:53 PM
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lifeisgood
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I would recommend that you check some of the videos here to see how SP works. http://www.speechproductivity.eu/

 

When I am working in a very long document, last one was like 800 pages, all I do is say "DB" (dictation box) and it gives me a separate screen where I dictate my text and then simply say "TRANSFER" and the text goes to the MS Word document.

 

One of the BEST FEATURES, at least for me, is that the text is never lost, if for some reason, you did not do something right (yeah, I have done dumb things), when that happens, all I have to say is paste here, paste that, etc. and the text pastes in the MS Word (in this example).




You can use "DB Advance" and you can make changes in the SP dictation box itself and when you say "TRANSFER" the text is transferred with your formatting.

Oh, yes, it is splity fast.



 12/22/2020 05:20 AM
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Tiger Feet
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You're right though, most people will need much more than 30 days to get acquainted with all SP 6 PRO program features. Therefore we will not include all of them, That would be too stressful .


Okay, so now we will not be getting the full package in the free trial. I'm hoping that the best bits will be in the free trial or are many of those left out as a marketing ploy? That sort of defeats the point of a free trial does it not?

BTW, 30 days is plenty long enough for me to decide what I need and don't need in your whole package. I'm a fast learner and a month is plenty of time. I don't have anything to sell so stress doesn't bother me.

I will be trialling Dragon Capture over the Christmas period too as a comparison to see if I need all the bells and whistles of SP Pro.

Thanks for mentioning (three times, so far) that you would love to see the demo.


I can see the demos and your excellent explanation of how they work from your signature tag in the KnowBrainer forums. I have mentioned this three times for a reason. You keep moving the goalposts. Is it going to be a full 30-day free trial with all the features included as you indicated at first? Or, just the ones that you decide are free that I was mis-led not to believe?

Your patience will be rewarded (within 10 days). We are just tying up some loose ends and adding last-minute changes


I'm in no rush and I am completely patient to see what you put out as a free trial package. By the time it comes out in two weeks, I know what my decision will be by what you put out. I will certainly not be parting with $89 if I cannot trial the full version of SP Pro first with all its features, not just a select few. Lindsay hasn't done this with SpeechStart + so why should you?   Plus, you're getting the luxury of Lunis letting you advertise your wares on his website without the need for adverts.

I've got some tough decisions to make in the next couple of days...


Decisions, decisions; I thought the decision would be quite straightforward really. Put out all the features of the software so we can decide for ourselves.

Yep, that would be me. Here's another one (without my girlfriend). It's got quite some views and likes on YouTube. My version of Garth Brooks's - Face to Face (I'm a fan, I think you'll like it too)


In that case, how about a discount for the promotion Rob?

Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone



 12/22/2020 10:04 AM
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R. Wilke
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Tiger Feet,

So far, I had decided to stay silent on this thread, for good measure given the original poster's request: "Would love to hear objective opinions and reviews, not from the proprietors of these products."

Perhaps I could, and probably should have mentioned that the whole idea of comparing DC and SP is like comparing apples and oranges, because they are so entirely different from each other. Both based on quite different technologies, etc., and more specifically designed for different purposes. To say the least, if I wanted to replicate, or even improve, the Dragon Dictation Box, which would be kind of easy, programmatically, I wouldn't have developed DragonCapture.

Now, I am chiming in at this time because you stated that you are planning to do an A to A comparison also, so I thought that should point out the above, and also mention that, by now, and finally, I just finished the first DragonCapture video tutorial which I would definitely recommend taking a look at first, as it has been designed to show the initial steps, from installing through activating and starting it, along with a short introduction into how it is meant to be used; which most people will probably not find so intuitive, to admit, as it is nothing to do with the classical dictation box design, almost.

Anyway, here is the link to the video, and if you have any questions, always feel free to contact me, even over the Christmas period, and you know how to reach out to me:

Getting Started with DragonCapture - Video Tutorial on Vimeo



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 12/22/2020 12:17 PM
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Given everyone's opinion will be different on the subject, I almost hesitate to voice an opinion, but as I am a happy customer of both products I thought I would go ahead and put in my opinion. They are in my mind different products. Dragon capture, which I have set for auto transfer in hidden mode, basically jumps in any time I am dictating into a text box or other area that Dragon is unable to. Just works, and I forget many times that it is even working, has it just does its job and should have been part of Dragon all along. Yes there are times when I would like to have Select-and-Say capabilities and that is when I use Speech Productivity, as there dictation boxes serve a great function to allow me to dictate, correct and easily transfer information to a target window.

For instance with Microsoft teams in the chat window, it is not Dragon friendly. I have Dragon capture on and so a short dictation can automatically be put in Microsoft teams and I don't even have to think about it. If I'm going to dictate anything longer than I bring up in SP dictation box.

I hope this helps someone to evaluate the niche each product serves. Speech Productivity obviously also offers lots of additional commands and tools for lots of different activities.

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 12/22/2020 12:46 PM
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Tom,

This is the best comment so far, and by far, giving credit to all the nuances. It really isn't a matter of one or the other, both products are so entirely different, by design, that you cannot reasonably compare them. And it seems like you well discovered what DragonCapture was meant for.

Thanks much
RW



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 12/22/2020 02:32 PM
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BTW: The following text was entered on a second machine, where I am using an old Dragon license, but where I have neither DragonCapture nor KnowBrainer installed. This might explain some of the text entry errors.

 

---

 

I'm a happy user of DragonCapture. DragonCapture was what made me be able to tolerate using Dragon again, after a lapse of almost a decade.  Most of the apps I use are not speech-enabled -  e.g. OneNote, Emacs -and DragonCapture allows me to almost totally forget this limitation... Up to the point where I need to correct something. (Which happens surprisingly infrequently, especially since I have fallen the habit of adding this technical terms to my vocabulary when they first are misrecognized.)

 

For me, the killer feature of DragonCapture is AutoPaste - which I believe is where people are calling fully automatic.

 

SP's lightning fast popup looks great, but I don't want to even have to think about it.

 

I have NOT evaluated SP Pro in actual use. Watching the video a year or so ago quickly showed that it was not transparent, so I switched to DragonCapture.  I have done a quick skim of the new videos, but as far as I can tell it is still not completely transparent.

 

I might be happy to purchase SP Pro, even without possibility of a refund - it is only 35$, right? - but I am much more reluctant to But I am much more reluctant to spend time evaluating it. My time is worth much more than $35 an hour.  This reluctance also applies to "free evaluations" - in my experience I often only find the downsides of the piece of software after a month of use, not a few hours. And after spending some time debunking to figure out which piece of software is causing the problems I have encountered.

 

SP's "kitchen sink" aspect scared me off quite a bit. For example, SP has its own hotkey manager. But I am quite happy using AutoHotKey, especially since it works in cases where speech cannot be used. SP's HyperNotes - sounds great, but I already use OneNote.  I don't need yet another tool storing files in yet another place.   At the very least I would  need to disable many if not most of these features, just as I'm in the throes of disabling many if not most of the KnowBrainer commands that I do not use.  

 

Similarly, while I might like to optionally use some of these SP features, I do not want to do that by accident. Every speech app that adds an un-prefixed command that I can invoke by accident is a source of pain. I might be a lot more willing to use SP Pro if there were an option to make it less likely that the SP commands were confused with normal dictation, or with commands from other facilities like DragonCapture and KnowBrainer.

 

One of the things I like most about KnowBrainer is that at least I can edit the MyKBCommands.xml file, and add a prefix puff to almost all commands. One of the things I dislike is that I cannot at such a prefix to certain hardwired KnowBrainer commands. Similarly, DragonCapture's commands, and also PCbyVoice SpeechStart+.

 

---

 

However, I would like to have the best of both DC and SP in a single app. Not because I don't want to buy both.   Partly because of some of the issues above.  In large part because I continue to suffer annoying performance problems. I very much suspect that they often arise because Dragon and DragonCapture are separate apps/processes/threads, leading to resource contention and possibly livelock/deadlock issues.  I have already disable some other separate thread speech apps, and performance has improved. I depend on DragonCapture so much that I am reluctant to disable it, especially since one must restart Dragon after disabling DragonCapture, i.e. disabling DragonCapture is not lightweight. But I have seriously thought about it, and occasionally try disabling DragonCapture to see if performance problems go away.

 

But mainly, because of laziness.  Not just because I'm too lazy to remember which command to use in which place, although that is annoying.  But mainly because I want a feature that I think can only be obtained by merging the two:

 

I mainly use DragonCapture in AutoPaste mode, into apps that are not speech ready.

 

Occasionally, however, I would like to go back and correct errors that have already been pasted.

 

SP Pro involves knowing in advance that such corrections are necessary. A priori.   I could always cut the text I want to correct out of the application it got pasted into, open SP Pro, edit it there, and then transfer it.   But I can already do that with quite a number of apps, including DragonPad, Word, etc. My BKM is to use speech-enabled MS Word, or even non-speech-enabled OneNote, because I often find that I want to make a copy of my dictation in such circumstances separate from where I am dictating it into. E.g. I often make copies in OneNote of posts to this forum.

 

What I'd really like it if this could be done a posteriori.   E.g. I'm dictating into DragonCapture, also pasting.   But I see errors one or two paragraphs back. It is easy enough to tell the app to undo.  But I would like to replay that dictation into a speech ready to make it convenient to correct, and then replace. That is something I do not know how to do easily.  Yes, individual utterances get stuck into the clipboard, but not multiple paragraphs with pauses in the middle. Assembling a body of text out of multiple separate clipboard entries is a pain. Ditto recognition history.  I can select backwards, cut/paste that.,  But it would be better not just to have text, but also the speech that led to the text, so the training and correction might be useful. Even if not automated, sometimes just listening to what I said reminds me of what I intended, even if Dragon did not recognize it correctly.

 

Yes, I know: this goes down the slippery slope of keyboard loggers. Worse, not just keyboard logging, but keyboard and voice logging. Potentially a big security threat. But all of speech recognition, all AutoHotKey type programs, all of these are potential security holes. They are also very useful.

 

Originally posted by: R. Wilkecomparing DC and SP is like comparing apples and oranges, because they are so entirely different from each other. Both based on quite different technologies, etc., and more specifically designed for different purposes.

 

Can you explain the difference in their technologies? Are they hooking in different places?

 

Given my suspicions about performance problems related to separate tasks/processes/threads, are they different in those aspects?



-------------------------

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 12/22/2020 03:34 PM
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R. Wilke
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AG,

Thanks much for the very distinguished reply. As always, they are a bit comprehensive, and difficult to respond to therefore. Let me start by answering one question specifically, however:

"Can you explain the difference in their technologies? Are they hooking in different places?"

DragonCapture hooks into Dragon at the very core of it. It is all about Dragon programming, to the API, and even below, in some ways. For that matter, it communicates with Dragon all the time, in particular ways, which I might expand on, although it would be exceedingly technical, and perhaps boring.


SP, on the other hand, does not communicate with Dragon at all. It is not about Dragon programming. It creates boxes which are Select-and-Say and puts them to the foreground when activating them, so when this happens, you can happily dictate into them, just like into any other Select-and-Say text box.

To achieve this, SP runs the boxes from so-called modal dialogs, which means dialogs which require sticking to them as long as they have the focus, and to return to the window from which they were started by default when closing the dialog, to paste the content of the text box in the previous dialog over to the previous window. Pretty much like the Dragon Dictation Box, and pretty much, by design, as any old message box has been designed, in terms of locking the focus.

 

Adding to this, and based on a rather poor design decision in my opinion, every single box, and every single instance of a box, is invoked by running an invidual executable, starting it via a voice command; and the executables aren't even digitally signed, so you mave your own take on this.

Opposed to this, DragonCapture runs from a single DLL injected into natspeak exe. All of the DragonCapture UI runs in a so-called modeless dialog, which allows for sharing the focus with any number of "foreign" active windows at any time, and also allowing for changes in the foreground window, without requiring the dialog to be finished.

Admittedly, this was probably not the best way to describe the difference between modal and modeless dialogs, but implementing it like this was a prerequisite to getting DragonCapture to operate as a "Remote & Continuous Dictation Box".

So, these are probably the two main aspects in being different, technically, although there are quite a few more, potentially.

Full Disclosure: I never ran SP, but I can tell quite clearly how it works from the descriptions and the video demonstrations, which are quite obvious.



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 12/22/2020 04:53 PM
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dilligence
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Although fellow developer Wilke does his best to reduce SP to a handful of "modal dialogs" which is not very accurate unless of course you want to call applications like DragonPad, Wordpad, Notepad etc. "modal dialogs" as well, he conveniently forgets that particularly in SP 6 PRO the Dictation Box is just a small part of the package (which contains a total of 27 modules, SP Standard has 14 modules). Both packages either enhance existing features or add innovative new features to Dragon. If you take a look at the features pages you'll see what we mean.

 

Although Wilke says he never tried SP himself he does have an opinion about it based on "descriptions and videos". I guess we would call this a very valid opinion, right 

I however have tried his (single task) application. Several times actually, to find that it initially seems to work for one or two sentences but pretty soon I have to revert to tedious manual corrections. 

 

When it comes to the Remote & Continuous dictation, I think the powerful dictation box featured in DMPE 4 does a far much better job.

 

There's another interesting difference between SP and DC:

Current SP versions will largely work with Dragon cloud versions (in the future we will come up with more specific versions) while DC will not work there.



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 12/22/2020 05:42 PM
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First off, I am not your "fellow developer", Meulman. If I was wrong about you using modal dialogs - and, by the way, it is "modal", not "model", but how are you supposed to know -, or not using them any longer, although this has been my initial impression from when you started publishing it as a "product" back in around 2017, after asking for and collecting all kinds of advice from various sources around here, I am sorry for being mistaken, although it won't change the broader picture.

However, since you mentioned that what you do is equivalent to doing it in applications such as DragonPad, for instance, well, then I am lucky that this is what I already do, and have been doing for ages for whenever it comes to contiguous text dictation where Select-and-Say is a prerequisite, and, best of all, it has always been for free.

Enough said, as far as you are concerned.

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 12/23/2020 02:18 PM
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ax
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Well Kudos to Herr Wilke. Just as crusty as I remembered from 2014. But your good work speaks for itself.

If my "free" DME (Dragon Medical Embedded) "simulated dictation box" hack falls through due to Chrome/Nuance alteration/updates or what not, your utility would be my backup. But then I would have to fork out for DMPE 4.x.

But at least there is option.  From what I read in terms of physician feedback on this board, DragonCapture is "Citrix-friendly".

P.S., I did recommend DC to colleagues who use DMPE 4 in their private offices and who also have to contend with Citrix-based private EMR as I do.  One of the major selling point on the new Meditech Expanse, in my opinion, is that it is Chrome-based.  

 

The only "good citrix" is "no citrix".



 12/23/2020 02:32 PM
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AX, I seem to have a faint memory of you, but couldn't put my finger on it really. Obviously, your memory is more intact than mine and you also consider yourself being qualified to call me "crusty", whatever that means. Just call me anything you want, for that matter, as long as you don't consider me a MAGAt, which is a lot more relevant paying attention to than back in 2014, quite unfortunately. Almost everything was better back then.





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 12/23/2020 11:18 PM
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I've used both DC and SP Pro, and RW is right, they are very different products with different goals and different technologies. Comparing them to each other is pointless, IMHO. They are vastly different. Compare each to your needs, if you like; at least that makes some rational sense. Ag, I also value my time quite highly and recognized your feeling of not wanting to waste time on new technologies if they will dead-end in the future - but I'm smart enough to know that I cannot predict the future easily, so I don't worry about finding out what they can't do for me.


Instead, I look at them as *very* inexpensive learning experiences. From my point of view, when you value your time highly, it's nothing to spend a few bucks on finding out how someone else experienced in the field sees the world. Both RW and Rob (and Tom) have put HUGE amounts of time into developing them as _products_ (and not fast hacks, even though I have explored some of those too). I think that educational reason was the primary reason that I bought SpeechStart, KB, SP Pro, and DC - because I could learn from them all (and get some productivity boosts too, along the way). Probably it's the same reason I stay on the forum here - I learn things (and can sometimes share ideas too).


I've had a lifetime career in software and have found all the utilities I just listed above to be high-quality pieces of software. Dragon itself probably has more flakes in it than anything else (no doubt because of its complexity). All in all, I think it's amazing that we can do so much with voice these days. (And at the rate Rob and Tom are moving, we'll be able to enjoy and learn about yet more features to keep us happy and learning).


@Ag, while I'm at it, did you know SP has the ability to automatically pull your words out of an unfriendly app into SP for editing and later transfer back? That was a wonderful feature that made me smile. Dictate away, make a mistake, and with a couple of words, SP will pull your text out of the target app and make it available for editing and replacing. (Technically simple, of course, but *amazing* to see in operation. I loved it!


Just like someone said above about using DC in hidden AutoPaste mode (which is how I use it). It's amazing - you can't tell you're working with an unfriendly app until you switch focus or want to edit or whatever.


I'm grateful for all the tools and scripts that are contributed to the forum. Any time I can spend a few bucks to try out a promising new piece of software, I always try to do it, eventually. Thank you to all you developers!

-------------------------

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 12/24/2020 12:50 AM
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ax
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“When somebody says it’s not about the money, it’s about the money.” - H.L. Mencken

 

However, in this case, it is NOT all about the money.  At least it is not about the amount of money the developers sell these programs for.  Then again, it is about the money: bigger money - the "money" that is user's time and the money that represents a certain amount of "hassel" or "risk" involved in installing a piec of proprietary software.

 

Back a few years ago there was an old-timer whose avatar was a cat (other than David, aka TCXO), who regularly dispensed advises on computer hardware and "best practices".  I hope he is alright these days.  Anyhow, he advised a strictly disciplined, step-wise embargoed approach to installing software, any software, on his production machine(s).

 

A libertarian attitude toward installing all and sundry is a commendable dispensation toward developers, but unfortunately not tenable to the rest of us.

 

Side-tracking a little ... why is AutoHotKey, a utility with almost "silly syntax" so popular?  I mean genuinely popular?  

 

Here are two of the quick answers:

 

1.  Portability.  Portability.  Portability.  Triplication for emphasis.  I haven't had a latptop for the last 2+ years since I toasted the powersupply on my T440p.  I found that I haven't needed one because a) DME (prior to that MModal) is cloud-based, b) all my AHK scripts/utilities are portable, c) everything else is either portable or cloud-based.

 

2.  Large user base so that not only all "level 1 to 3" customer-service questions are answered by fellow users, most users feel they have a "personal stake".  

 

Some may suggest "open source" as the 3rd reason for AHK's popularity.  To most of us non-programmers who are strapped for time and ability, it matters much less.  Having said that, open-source is important for the evolution into a "healthy ecosystem".  

 

Perhaps the Python-based utilities Joel Gould originated, and RW helped with maintaining over the years fall into this category.  Clearly it is not realistic to expect smaller utilities to evolve into such "eco-systems".  But certain principles remain useful.

 

Obviously programmers need to get paid.  By the way, at the end of 2019 (just before the pandemic), I donated US$800 to the AutoHotKey Foundation (my accountant did think it was tax-deductable even though it is a US entity).  Not because I got money to burn.  In fact it's the exact opposite: I have to keep toiling.  And plying this trade requires accepting a painful dependence on this piece of deep-state malware called Windows.  AutoHotKey is the tonic that soothes the aches, so we can toil another day. 

 

I need AHK Foundation to continue to exist much more than AHK needs me as a user.  Hence I paid them $100 for each year I have used it.  I don't have to.  But then I want to - in my best interest.

 

If more developers of small utilities could make their products portable, not necessarily open-source, it would be much more practical for those of us who rely on institutional computers.  I think there are ways to make a piece of software both portable and commercial, and not necessarily relying on donations.

 

Of course this applies less to DC since it dovetails with DMPE, which itself isn't portable.  For those of us who know what DC is designed to do, I wouldn't hesitate to pay double the price or even higher, if I run DMPE and work with Citrix etc. 

 

But for SP and other similar products, my 2 cents is that making it portable would go a long away toward widening customer base, especially since it could work with DMO, which is more or less portable.  I am sure the developers can still figure out a way to get paid, reliably.

 

Well, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!



 12/24/2020 10:43 AM
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"I wouldn't hesitate to pay double the price or even higher, if I run DMPE and work with Citrix"

 

I certainly have significant issues with numerous Citrix versions playing well with Dragon over the years. But you might want to try Citrix Receiver 4.9 LTSR, which works great with it.

 

MDH



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 12/24/2020 11:48 AM
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R. Wilke
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Back a few years ago there was an old-timer whose avatar was a cat (other than David, aka TCXO), who regularly dispensed advises on computer hardware and "best practices".  I hope he is alright these days.  Anyhow, he advised a strictly disciplined, step-wise embargoed approach to installing software, any software, on his production machine(s).

 

The cat was a guy called "the chairman", and the photo was taken when sitting on a terrace owned by, at least part times, the "old-timer" you are referring to, while the cat is waiting for the best parts of the barbecue dished out to him. And I only know this because I did a whole of communicating with the alleged owner of the terrace back in the day.

So sadly, you are bringing up old memories in many kinds of ways.

Such as the grass being a lot greener in this forum back in the day, and I seem to remember you having been a part of it in some ways. (As an aside, there weren't as many would-be programmers around.)

But most unfortunately, Phil Schaadt, the terrace man, who had been the go-to guy as far as everything hardware related in combination with everything being Dragon-related from a real users perspective, disappeared a while ago, and leaving no trace behind. Kind of broke my heart.



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 12/24/2020 01:08 PM
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dilligence
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Originally posted by: ax But for SP and other similar products, my 2 cents is that making it portable would go a long away toward

widening customer base, especially since it could work with DMO, which is more or less portable.

 

Most of the SP modules already are portable (standalone executables)  

 

They don't hook into Dragon. In most cases they don't even rely on Dragon. Except maybe for the voice commands that launch them. But basically you can just as easily create desktop shortcuts to most modules and call them by voice natively). The included SP DVC voice commands just enhance their versatility.

 

This is also the reason why SP will never slow down Dragon, or corrupt a user profile. It's technically probably not even possible.

 

The way SP is structured lends itself perfectly to DMO. We are not limited to local Dragon installations or scripting commands per se. Simple step-by-step commands (which can be created with Dragon cloud versions) will do the trick with at least 90% of all SP functionality. My future goal will be to focus on these Dragon versions.

 

Thank you Kevin (kkkwj) for your thorough and nuanced reviews on both programs. Much appreciated



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 12/24/2020 04:02 PM
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Ag
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Originally posted by: ax  Back a few years ago there was an old-timer whose avatar was a cat... who regularly dispensed advises on computer hardware and "best practices".  I hope he is alright these days.  Anyhow, he advised a strictly disciplined, step-wise embargoed approach to installing software, any software, on his production machine(s).

I would appreciate pointers to descriptions of his approach. I can guess  at some of the steps, but I'm always interested in more. I like installing software like AHK and KnowBrainer, but the security  implications scare me silly. 

    

Side-tracking a little ... why is AutoHotKey, a utility with almost "silly syntax" so popular?  I mean genuinely popular?  

Here are two of the quick answers:

1.  Portability.  Portability.  Portability.  Triplication for emphasis.  I haven't had a latptop for the last 2+ years since I toasted the powersupply on my T440p.  I found that I haven't needed one because a) DME (prior to that MModal) is cloud-based, b) all my AHK scripts/utilities are portable, c) everything else is either portable or cloud-based.

Minor quibble:  I think we have a slightly different definition of  "portability". For me, portability would refer to having AHK available not just on Windows, but also on Mac OS and Linux.   in this sense Python is portable, but AHK is not.

Your version of "portability" means that you can take your AHK scripts and utilities between different Windows PCs, without worrying about licensing. Within the Windows community, AHK runs ubiquitously.

    

Some may suggest "open source" as the 3rd reason for AHK's popularity.  To most of us non-programmers who are strapped for time and ability, it matters much less.  Having said that, open-source is important for the evolution into a "healthy ecosystem".

Agreed:  I am not myself doing security audits of AHK.  But the idea that it might be possible to do such audits gives me some increased confidence.



-------------------------

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 12/26/2020 10:12 PM
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ax
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Originally posted by: MDH 

I certainly have significant issues with numerous Citrix versions playing well with Dragon over the years. But you might want to try Citrix Receiver 4.9 LTSR, which works great with it.

 

Thanks for the tip.  In fact the Citrix version my office EMR (Accuro by QHR) recommends is exactly this one, 4.9.6001.1, I believe.  Probably that's why my colleagues who run DMPE 4.x don't complain about it too much.  However, most are still using Word or notepad as template, and then paste ... Others stick to MModal, which doesn't give you Select-and-Say.  No citrix is still the best Citrix.  I am not too enthused about the speed (lack thereof) or the results presentation with the current Chrome-based Meditech Expanse.  But navigation sans Citrix, is a definite PLUS.  That's what's making "DME" tolerable ... or even "likeable" to a degree.

 

 

Originally posted by: dilligence

Most of the SP modules already are portable (standalone executables) 

 

They don't hook into Dragon. In most cases they don't even rely on Dragon. Except maybe for the voice commands that launch them. But basically you can just as easily create desktop shortcuts to most modules and call them by voice natively). The included SP DVC voice commands just enhance their versatility.

 

The way SP is structured lends itself perfectly to DMO. We are not limited to local Dragon installations or scripting commands per se. Simple step-by-step commands (which can be created with Dragon cloud versions) will do the trick with at least 90% of all SP functionality. My future goal will be to focus on these Dragon versions.

 

That I am glad to hear!  I for one think it makes business sense for someone to focus on DMO and the likes and how to make life more convenient on that front.  As anyone can infer, the "DME" I am using is even more locked down.  It's basically glorified browser-based voice recognition.  

 

And if you go down the "portability" (i.e., no Admin stand-alone route), you might want to consider aumenting the capability of WSR - not as a speech-recognition tool per se, but as a voice-assisted productivity tool.  Why the fifth rate WSR and not the proven fire-breathing beast?  Well this WSR chicken is already part of the Windows Roost.  So every PC I log onto at work has WSR built-in.  Even Cortana is everywhere, which I disable every time I see the box.  True (for now) that few folks are clamouring for any WSR-driven capabilities (myself included).  But perhaps we just haven't been shown what's possible ... somewhere between creepy Cortana and something more advanced based off of WSR Macros pack, perhaps lie opportunies for keen developers.

 

Back to SP Pro specifics, Rob, how is the "Quiet Box" better-implemented than the "Hidden Dictation Box" in DMPE or "Hidden Speech Box" in MModal (same concept as in DMPE)? 

 

Now it doesn't have to be "better", Rob.  If I recall, the DMPE-style "hidden box" was unavailable to non-medical editions, at least during Dragon 12 / DMPE 2.x times.  So if you implemented something for the generic public that Nuance withheld for no reason other than mo money, then that's a plus for the user public.

 

But then again, Dragon Capture can simulate the Hidden (out-of-focus) dictation box and then some, as well, no?

 

 

Originally posted by: Ag 

I would appreciate pointers to descriptions of his approach. I can guess  at some of the steps, but I'm always interested in more. I like installing software like AHK and KnowBrainer, but the security  implications scare me silly. 

 

Indeed as RW reminisced, the dude with a cat avatar went by the call-sign of "Phils", who was exceedingly prolific, and generous with his time.  It might take a while to filter through his older posts.  But he did talk about "defensive computing", much of which was "common-sensical".  However, it takes discipline.  And it will take some resource, too.  It may mean that you keep a machine for testing, while approaching any software that goes on your production box with "extreme prejudice".  

 

He was also big on full-sector Backup and Restoration at the earliest sign of trouble.  That's a bridge too far for me personally.  Windows of course provide restore points.

 

I am personally very loathe to install any software on my production computers (one at home, one in the office) "willy nilly".  I try to install as little as possible.  

 

Hence my obsession with "portability".

 

 

Originally posted by: Ag 

Minor quibble:  I think we have a slightly different definition of  "portability". For me, portability would refer to having AHK available not just on Windows, but also on Mac OS and Linux.   in this sense Python is portable, but AHK is not.

 

Your version of "portability" means that you can take your AHK scripts and utilities between different Windows PCs, without worrying about licensing. Within the Windows community, AHK runs ubiquitously.

 

Bang on.  I do not mean "cross-platform portability".  By portability I mean "concealed carry".  Okay in 2020 make that EDC (every-day-carry).



 12/24/2020 12:11 PM
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kkkwj
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On the AHK sidetrack, it seems to me that it's not really relevant in a discussion about voice tools. The most important point is that AHK is not a voice-operated piece of software, so it doesn't seem reasonable to use it as an example for anything related to voice utilities like DC, SP Pro, KB, etc. Other significant points are that AHK addresses a large market need (including mostly those who don't need to use voice at all), is a very old piece of software, and has had zillions of hours of development effort on various platforms by many, many programmers over time.


Contrast that with SS, KB, SP, and DC. These tools were written mostly by *single developers* who *are forced to use voice* for a tiny, tiny market of voice-oriented users. To me, their efforts seem Herculean. It's amazing to me what their programs achieve. For them and their users, portability is just not a big thing. Windows and Dragon are the only real voice game in town.


AHK, QuickMacros, and all the other keyboard macro tools are certainly useful, but in my view, they don't play in the same league as the voice tools. When AHK gets a voice interface on it that you can program by voice like you can Dragon or KB (with its lightning-fast Verbal Basic command definitions), then it can be compared, I suppose. But as long as AHK is being called by Dragon, it's just another external utility that does useful things.


Probably the best way to look at it is to take an end-to-end view of the tool chain, from voice-operated tools to the end result. To get the result, you need the whole chain, and a complete set of chain links. The chain always starts with voice recognition (Dragon), then voice-operated tools (Dragon commands, scripts, or Dragon plugins like DC/KB), then voice-operated external tools (like SP Pro), and finally non-voice utilities like AHK, macros, external exe files, and so on. All the links are important to achieve the desired result.


Just my Christmas Eve thoughts on voice and development and tools... Merry Christmas

-------------------------

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 12/26/2020 11:09 PM
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ax
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Originally posted by: kkkwj

 

On the AHK sidetrack, it seems to me that it's not really relevant in a discussion about voice tools. The most important point is that AHK is not a voice-operated piece of software, so it doesn't seem reasonable to use it as an example for anything related to voice utilities like DC, SP Pro, KB, etc. 

 

...

 

These tools were written mostly by *single developers* who *are forced to use voice* for a tiny, tiny market of voice-oriented users. To me, their efforts seem Herculean. It's amazing to me what their programs achieve. For them and their users, portability is just not a big thing. 

 

...   

 

Probably the best way to look at it is to take an end-to-end view of the tool chain, from voice-operated tools to the end result. To get the result, you need the whole chain, and a complete set of chain links. The chain always starts with voice recognition (Dragon), then voice-operated tools (Dragon commands, scripts, or Dragon plugins like DC/KB), then voice-operated external tools (like SP Pro), and finally non-voice utilities like AHK, macros, external exe files, and so on.

 

 

All true in the sense that "no two apples are exactly alike".  And some may subconsciously stretch the definition of apples.  And some will redirect a discussion on apples vs oranges to how to sell more fruits and what unmet fruity needs poor me is having.

 

I have of course done the above.

 

But you brought up some salient assumptions, the key being that most developers on this forum intend to "constrain" their professional/development focus on the 'voice only" or "voice primarily" user group. 

 

First allow me to pause and take my hat off to those deveopers who are significantly physically disabled themselves, who are leveraging their fortitude, determination, and intellect in ways most of us can only look up to and admire.

 

However, after serving the needs of their intended audience, they may very well expand on the "niche" to fill unmet computing needs of others, for whom "portability" (in an "EDC" sense) is not just a nicety, but a requirement.  

 

Moreover, "voice only/primarily" is not the goal for many lines of work.  There is definite room for an "integrated approach", which you alluded to, to be taken on by more developers.  I will give concrete examples in due time, and sure hope to see some of this "hybridization" come into fruition.

 

 



 12/29/2020 03:51 AM
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> But you brought up some salient assumptions, the key being that most developers on this forum intend to "constrain" their professional/development focus on the 'voice only" or "voice primarily" user group. 

 

Hi ax, true, it looks like they focus there. My guess is that it's because they're trying to improve their own computing experience because they have experience with physical disabilities. Knowing what I know about how hard software development is even for teams of people without disabilities, I also think they just don't have enough cycles left over to go beyond the voice world and compete with other tools (like the freeware AHK - very difficult to enhance/go beyond it).

 

> Moreover, "voice only/primarily" is not the goal for many lines of work.  There is definite room for an "integrated approach", which you alluded to, to be taken on by more developers.  I will give concrete examples in due time, and sure hope to see some of this "hybridization" come into fruition.

 

It's also true that voice-only is not the goal for many (I would say most) lines of work. It's interesting that you highlight "an integrated approach" that combines the voice and non-voice worlds. 

 

It seems to me that the hybrid approach makes the labor/effort problem even worse. It requires you to solve many difficult voice problems (so voice-only people can use it) before you can even start addressing and pushing advances in the non-voice world. Nonetheless, my hope is that one day I can use voice to develop software faster than I can without voice.



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 12/28/2020 07:10 PM
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lifeisgood,

Thank you very much for the response.
Currently I use Notepad or WordPad when I need to dictate material that is going to be added to a note. But if I am down in the notes section of a big document, and I don't have Notepad or WordPad open already, then there is an extremely long delay before either will open. (If they are already open, I can dictate in them without problems.) I'm guessing from what you describe that the "DB" command is not subject to the same delays, even when used at the end of a Word document. If so, that's great.

I was also wondering whether you could you use the "get text" feature to scoop out the text from a note for editing in the SP dictation box? Based on the description of the "get text" command, it is meant for pulling text from speech-unfriendly applications, so I wasn't sure if it would also work in a note in Microsoft Word.

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 12/28/2020 10:46 PM
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You are welcome.

 

Paragraph #1 Yes. That is exactly how it works. It matters not that you document is, let’s say 500 pages, when you say “DB” it simply opens the SP dictation box and you simply start talking and when you say TRANSFER it simply transfers the text to the MS Word document or whatever place you are and ALSO it SAVES your text. So, even when you make a mistake, for whatever the reason, you can simply paste the text wherever you want to.

 

Paragraph #2. When you say “get text” it takes ALL the document, not just a part of the document.

 

 

 12/29/2020 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by: lifeisgoodParagraph #1 Yes. That is exactly how it works. It matters not that you document is, let’s say 500 pages, when you say “DB” it simply opens the SP dictation box and you simply start talking and when you say TRANSFER it simply transfers the text to the MS Word document or whatever place you are and ALSO it SAVES your text. So, even when you make a mistake, for whatever the reason, you can simply paste the text wherever you want to.

 

Paragraph #2. When you say “get text” it takes ALL the document, not just a part of the document.

 

Thank you again! Paragraph #1 is excellent news. Paragraph #2, well, one can't have everything, and the other feature would certainly be helpful.

 

 



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 12/29/2020 07:07 PM
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gasolo
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Just to add on to Lifeisgood's message concerning paragraph 1. It gets even better with DB. If you want a clear read back for editing purposes, you say, "transferspoken" instead of just transfer and it reads back what is being transferred in one shot. I use it all the time and my posts end up being crystal clear and correct. Either way, SP is a great tool for dictation and editing.



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GaSolo

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