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Topic Title: Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3
Topic Summary: Does anybody *not* see the jumping page problem on their system? Make this test
Created On: 12/06/2020 08:38 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 12/06/2020 08:38 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Stephan Kuepper - 12/07/2020 04:15 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 12/07/2020 05:29 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/13/2021 11:02 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - bmac - 01/13/2021 01:49 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/13/2021 11:39 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/13/2021 03:04 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/13/2021 03:30 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Lunis Orcutt - 01/13/2021 03:29 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/13/2021 04:39 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/13/2021 04:58 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/13/2021 05:00 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/13/2021 06:11 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - R. Wilke - 01/13/2021 06:44 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/14/2021 03:50 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/14/2021 02:05 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/14/2021 02:48 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/14/2021 04:47 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/15/2021 11:15 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/15/2021 01:11 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - PG LTU - 01/15/2021 11:54 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/15/2021 02:27 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/15/2021 04:47 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/15/2021 05:14 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/15/2021 05:19 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/16/2021 06:27 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/15/2021 05:23 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/16/2021 06:45 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/16/2021 02:00 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Alan Cantor - 01/16/2021 11:38 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/16/2021 12:04 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Alan Cantor - 01/16/2021 01:47 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Alan Cantor - 01/16/2021 05:07 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - kkkwj - 01/16/2021 10:22 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - R. Wilke - 01/17/2021 05:20 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/17/2021 05:58 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - R. Wilke - 01/17/2021 09:41 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/17/2021 10:05 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - kkkwj - 01/17/2021 01:04 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/17/2021 02:44 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/17/2021 01:44 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - R. Wilke - 01/17/2021 02:05 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/17/2021 02:44 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - kkkwj - 01/18/2021 02:59 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/18/2021 04:56 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - kkkwj - 01/18/2021 02:04 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/18/2021 04:41 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Lunis Orcutt - 01/18/2021 06:25 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/18/2021 07:10 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/19/2021 11:27 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Matt_Chambers - 01/19/2021 04:40 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Alan Cantor - 01/19/2021 01:00 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/19/2021 01:40 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/19/2021 06:48 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/21/2021 07:00 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Mav - 01/21/2021 08:50 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/21/2021 10:06 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Suzanne Suzanne - 02/03/2021 04:00 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Lunis Orcutt - 02/03/2021 04:29 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Edgar - 01/21/2021 10:51 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/21/2021 11:20 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - monkey8 - 01/25/2021 07:58 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/25/2021 09:43 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/26/2021 02:20 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Diogenes - 01/27/2021 03:04 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 01/27/2021 03:42 PM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/01/2021 03:47 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - bethannon2 - 02/01/2021 11:37 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 02/01/2021 11:42 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Suzanne Suzanne - 02/03/2021 04:25 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - mareid - 02/06/2021 11:57 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - David.P - 02/07/2021 06:58 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - PG LTU - 02/08/2021 10:33 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Edgar - 02/08/2021 11:22 AM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/08/2021 04:53 PM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - drrunev - 02/09/2021 11:25 AM  
 Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 Release Notes - Seriously?   - Lunis Orcutt - 02/09/2021 01:08 PM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/10/2021 12:40 PM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - wristofdoom - 02/11/2021 10:27 AM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/11/2021 10:50 AM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/12/2021 10:36 AM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - PG LTU - 02/17/2021 05:30 PM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - kkkwj - 02/18/2021 12:09 PM  
 Page jumps up/down on every noise in Word and Outlook -- since Dragon v15.3   - David.P - 02/18/2021 12:39 PM  
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 12/06/2020 08:38 AM
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David.P
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After two weeks with DPI 15.6, I'm about to go back to 15.3.

 

The Jumping Cursor problem -- the only issue I was REALLY looking forward to getting fixed after about 15 years of Nuance not understanding it, is worse than ever -- since it now has a new incarnation, the Jumping Page problem, since version 15.3. 

 

With version 15.6, the latter problem now has also infected Outlook 365, which didn't show the Jumping Page issue with version 15.3.

 

Then, the Dragon bar: although set to Tray Icon Mode only, it keeps popping up with every start of the program, and has to be manually minimized to the tray every time.

 

However, when it is minimized to the tray, which has been my favorite, only way to use Dragon for decades, the Dragon menu is not accessible. You first have to restore the Dragon bar in order to access any menu command, and afterwards manually send it to the tray again.

 

Additionally, Dragon v.15.6 can stop recognizing dictation a couple of times a day and has to be restarted -- which then however doesn't work the usual way by closing the Dragon Bar, so instead Dragon has to be killed via Task Manager, which of course means that you lose any new entries to the vocabulary, inter alia.

 

It's sad how Nuance have managed to basically only disimprove Dragon this time.

 

And then there's the release notes that contain about one (!) fixed issue of some significance:
Release Notes Dragon Professional Individual 15.6 (commented version)

 

I'm seriously unimpressed and disappointed.

 

For my Dragon workflow and usage every day all day, there is not one perceivable improvement with version 15.6 -- only added annoyances, sadly.

 

 

Regarding the jumping page issue, it would be interesting to know whether anybody does not see the page jumping with Dragon v15.3 or v15.6, when carrying out the following steps:

 

1. Open a file with multiple pages, preferably more than five pages, in any version of Microsoft Word (for example the attached file "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.docx")


2. Scroll down approximately halfway through the document


3. Place the text cursor (i.e. the blinking text caret | ) anywhere in the visible part of the document by mouse click


4. Dictate a short utterance or make any kind of noise into the microphone, e.g. by blowing -- the jumping occurs here

 

5. Scroll the document a couple of lines up or down using the scroll bars or the mouse wheel and repeat steps 4 and 5.

 

 

Let me know your results.






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Edits due to outdated forum software



 12/07/2020 04:15 AM
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Stephan Kuepper
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David,

you seem to be about the only user who never had issues with 15.3 in MS Office :-)

To access Dragon's options, you can say "open Dragon options" ("Dragon Optionen öffnen" in German). Same is true for Formatting options. That will at least save you opening the DragonBar.

As to the fixed issues, the release notes show only the issues that were fixed between 15.3 and 15.6. Still you are correct: after four years, we should have Dragon 17, not the sixth service pack. Desktop solutions seem to be on their way out; Nuance developers have been focusing on Cloud solutions. Not least because of the MS Office issues, I use Dragon cloud solutions almost exclusively in my daily work. PM me if you want to know more.

Cheers, Stephan



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 12/07/2020 05:29 AM
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David.P
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Stephan,

 

quite to the contrary and as you must be aware, the issue at hand is decades old, and there is an untold amount of threads about it in this forum alone.

 

One of the more recent ones about version 15.3 can be found here, including a summary about how to solve the issue, by Lindsay -- if Nuance would only understand it.

 

Since I'm only using dictation mode for speed reasons, I cannot access the Dragon options by voice.

 

Regards,

David

--

Edit: just saw that you wrote "never" not "ever". Anyway, I wasn't saying I didn't have issues with 15.3 in Office. All I'm saying is that it has been getting worse instead of better with 15.6.



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Edits due to outdated forum software



 01/13/2021 11:02 AM
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David.P
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Just going to report that the jumping page (aka "jumping cursor") problem has not only infected Outlook in the meantime but also Print Layout View mode in Microsoft Word -- both of which were free of this issue with DPI v.15.3 (and before).

The jumping of the page has become so bad and ubiquitous now that DPI v.15.6 is unusable for me and I am forced to go back to DPI v.15.3.

"Kudos" to the Dragon team that it took them 15+ years to not fix this bug and to instead make it even worse.



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Edits due to outdated forum software



 01/13/2021 01:49 PM
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bmac
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Originally posted by: David.P Just going to report that the jumping page (aka "jumping cursor") problem has not only infected Outlook in the meantime but also Print Layout View mode in Microsoft Word 

 

this is happened to me as well. Yesterday I was using dictation box on my surface Pro 6 and the cursor was jumping back sometimes 10 sentences unexpectedly. I don't see this happening as much when I am using my main desktop and dictating within Microsoft Word or Outlook it.



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Bill
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 01/13/2021 11:39 AM
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Matt_Chambers
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Works great for me. Must be something with your setup, but I have no idea what it would be.
 01/13/2021 03:04 PM
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David.P
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Thanks for your feedback gents.

I went and terminated every program and nearly every background process, but the issue persists.

The only remaining specialty of my setup probably is that I am on a couple of 4K monitors.

 

I should add that I never have a jumping *cursor* problem, however this probably is due to the fact that I am using Push To Talk all the time, thus never have the microphone open while scrolling around in a document.

 

I only see the jumping *page* problem all the time. In Microsoft Word, it can be seen that this is due to the fact that NaturallySpeaking visibly triggers a repagination of the entire document on every detected sound, even if it is only breathing or keyboard noise.

 

This repagination then in turn makes the page jump up and down -- after every utterance, and even when not dictating but just making the slightest noise.



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 01/13/2021 03:30 PM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt
We recommend looking for something else like a non-Dragon friendly add-in/extension or another utility

 

Originally posted by: David.P

I went and terminated every program and nearly every background process, but the issue persists.

 

Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt
We cannot reproduce this problem

 

It is most noticeable and severe when Word is in Print Preview mode (with the Magnifier Tool turned off) and when showing two full pages side by side (but not on the first two pages). 



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Edits due to outdated forum software



 01/13/2021 03:29 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We are using 3 4K 32 inch monitors and tested Push to Talk. We cannot reproduce this problem. We don't believe most end-users are plagued by this issue so we recommend looking for something else like a non-Dragon friendly add-in/extension or another utility

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 01/13/2021 04:39 PM
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monkey8
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Hi David,

 

You are quite right David it is worse than ever. The reason other people can't see it is because they are not using Microsoft Word or outlook in the same hands-free manner. I have yet to see an installation that doesn't do it. It's a shambles but the chances of getting it fixed now are pretty minimum. Stephan is right in that the Dragon focus now is on cloud services and the problems doesn't exist with Dragon Professional Anywhere and Dragon Medical One.

 

During beta testing of DPG 15.5 I had an email from development that acknowledged the problem as you know and I have brought it up again several times to no avail.

 

I would strongly recommend trying DPA if the focus of your Dragon work is making corrections and editing documents. Having said that DPG or DPI would be better if they only fixed the problem.

 

Here is a simple way to reproduce the problem in Microsoft Word. Open Microsoft word document with a couple of pages and go to the first paragraph and place the caret (the blinking insertion point and not the mouse pointer or cursor) somewhere in the first paragraph. Then without using Dragon but with the Dragon microphone switched on use your mouse to scroll down to the 2nd page. When you get to the 2nd page place your mouse pointer halfway down the first paragraph of the 2nd page and then issue the command "mouse left click" as if you are going to position the caret in the first paragraph of page 2. The instant you issue the voice command Dragon jumps back up to paragraph 1 of page 1 where the caret presently is.

 

Going back to the insertion point when hearing dictation would be the correct behaviour for Dragon but going back to the insertion point for a voice command or an unrecognised utterance is NOT correct behaviour. The problem makes it impossible or very difficult to edit documents by voice completely hands-free. In my case I use SmartNav HeadMouse to operate the scrollbars. However if you want to do it completely hands-free by Dragon and use voice commands to move down the pages then similar problems exist.

 

Even easier is just to start scrolling through Microsoft Word document using the scrollbars with a mouse (not by voice command) with the Dragon microphone switched on and the second you make a noise or issue a voice command Dragon starts the jumping pages in the sense that it tries to get back to the insertion point/caret position. I repeat Dragon should only do this if it hears dictation, it is such a simple fix. Of course you can switch off the Microsoft Word Dragon add-in and fix the problem but that defeats the purpose but does demonstrate the problem is with the Dragon add-in.

 

Lindsay



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 01/13/2021 04:58 PM
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Matt_Chambers
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I can confirm that this problem exists with my installation. I guess I never are very rarely experienced it, because I don't use mouse commands. I usually navigate in Microsoft Word and other applications by specifying the number of lines to move.

 01/13/2021 05:00 PM
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monkey8
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Thanks Matt, it's heartening to get feedback from a user with your experience who now acknowledges the problem having previously been unaware that it existed. Doing what you do in terms of moving down lines is one of the ways round the issue but it can be very inefficient if you want to go from page 2 to page 26 for example.



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 01/13/2021 06:11 PM
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Matt_Chambers
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Thanks for your description of the problem! It made it easy for me to figure out how to trigger the problem.

 01/13/2021 06:44 PM
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R. Wilke
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The same thing happens if you scroll down or up without moving the insertion point and then start typing using the keyboard, if you are unaware of having to click into the document first. But of course, this in not an excuse.

However, updating the sync between the visible part of the document, including the selection, which may be just the cursor position, with the internal text buffer at the start of each utterance, is a prerequisite for Select-and-Say to work. I am not sure if delaying this until after text recognition has been ascertained would be even doable, or useful at least.

Indeed, navigating exclusively by voice is the solution, and it also seems that you could go from page 2 to page 26 by saying "move down twenty six pages" in Word.

All in all, too much hassle being made in my opinion, and not a reason to not upgrade.

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 01/14/2021 03:50 AM
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monkey8
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke The same thing happens if you scroll down or up without moving the insertion point and then start typing using the keyboard, …

 

Yes it does, as it should, but Dragon does it when hearing a voice command or unrecognised dictation e.g. ???  and it should ONLY return to the insertion point when hearing valid dictation, that's the problem in a nutshell. Navigating purely by voice to page 26 (e.g. go to page 26 or move down 26 pages) and then getting to the appropriate paragraph also has considerable difficulties with jumping pages and if you try exclusively by voice you will see what I mean. It does not do it with WordPad or any other word editor, only Microsoft word because of the badly coded COM add-in.



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 01/14/2021 02:05 PM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: monkey8

Here is a simple way to reproduce the problem in Microsoft Word. 

[...] start scrolling through Microsoft Word document using the scrollbars with a mouse (not by voice command) with the Dragon microphone switched on and the second you make a noise or issue a voice command Dragon starts the jumping pages in the sense that it tries to get back to the insertion point/caret position. I repeat Dragon should only do this if it hears dictation, it is such a simple fix.

 

Yes Lindsay, this is exactly what happens. 

 

Originally posted by: monkey8

Going back to the insertion point when hearing dictation would be the correct behaviour for Dragon but going back to the insertion point for a voice command or an unrecognised utterance is NOT correct behaviour. The problem makes it impossible or very difficult to edit documents by voice completely hands-free. 

 

Correct, this is how Dragon acts (properly) in every other Select-and-Say enabled application except Microsoft Word, for example in DragonPad or WordPad. 

 

However, what you are describing is what I consider to be the ancient "jumping cursor problem" (although it is actually the page that is jumping back to the cursor position). At least this problem is related to the offscreen cursor (i.e. blinking caret) position.

 

This is however not the problem I'm having. As I mentioned I always use Push-To-Talk to dictate, and am not moving around documents using voice commands. However, even when only dictating pure text into a document and when the blinking text caret is not even offscreen, and additionally even if not dictating but only making a noise or breathing, the page jumps up and down on almost every utterance or noise.

 

Here's a video showing that only by making noise into the microphone, the page jumps up or down:

 

https://youtu.be/hrM7NxbT-go

The same happens with every actual utterance that is dictated.

 

And here is how it is even worse in Microsoft Word's Print Preview mode (with the Magnifier Tool turned off):

 

https://youtu.be/ruM_IfeaMFU

 

You don't even have to move around in the document to provoke the issue. The page literally jumps up and down on every single utterance or noise.



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 01/14/2021 02:48 PM
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monkey8
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Yes David I can confirm all of this and you will note at the end of my post I did actually say 

 

"Even easier is just to start scrolling through Microsoft Word document using the scrollbars with a mouse (not by voice command) with the Dragon microphone switched on and the second you make a noise or issue a voice command Dragon starts the jumping pages…" 

 

You have demonstrated this elegantly on your video. I don't actually use preview mode very much but I can confirm exactly what you're seeing. As I say I have reported this directly to development but on talking to them just this month it seems they are being pulled in all directions which makes me wonder if DPI/DPG are being worked on with the same amount of resources anymore and maybe quite a lot of resources are going to DPA. However I don't know that for sure. I have now been asked to register all bugs through my DPG portal support account rather than directly to them. In the last couple of years it was the opposite. However I can't even do that moment because we are being set up with new portals as resellers. I would encourage you to report the bug with links to your videos.



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 01/14/2021 04:47 PM
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David.P
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Thanks for your clarification Lindsay.

 

Here are two more videos, this time with actual dictation. The first one is in Microsoft Word's normal Page View mode, while the second one is in Print Preview mode again.


https://youtu.be/cuC-X_2XmJg
https://youtu.be/6yuinpYcxSw

Note that in both videos (same as in the two first videos further above), the blinking text cursor/caret is never off-screen, so this is not a case of Word jumping to the off-screen cursor (the "ancient" case that also Lindsay mainly seems to be referring to). Instead, this is simple plain dictation into the currently visible page with the text caret being visible and on-screen all the time.



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 01/15/2021 11:15 AM
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David.P
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One more video in slow motion here:
https://youtu.be/kCL-78y_29c

I have submitted the issue to Nuance via the support portal http://nuance.custhelp.com now.

Unfortunately, during submission a message popped up already saying the following:

 

General Dragon 15 issues in Microsoft Word and Outlook

Information:

 

In Dragon 15 Individual and Group, Users may experience the following issues when using Microsoft Outlook and/or Word:

 

* "natspeak" add-in getting disabled. (Refer to TN 29750)

 

* Hanging issues during dictation.

 

* Crashing issues when during dictation.

 

* Slow dictation issues.

 

* Jumping cursor issues during dictation.

 

 

The issues above are usually caused by a factor within the Users environment, not Dragon. Unfortunately, Nuance does not have any diagnostics tools to determine what environmental factors would be causing the issue.
 
However environment-specific issues can be caused by some of the following:

 

 

- Faulty or corrupt installation of Dragon. Un-install / Re-install Dragon and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- Faulty or corrupt Dragon User Profile or upgraded Dragon User Profile. Create a new Dragon User Profile and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- Faulty or corrupt Windows User Account. Create a new Windows User Account and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- Faulty or corrupt Windows OS. Repair or reformat the OS and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- Custom-based OS images on the computer. Test against a locally installed OS Image and advise if the issue occurs. (NOTE - Mainly applicable to corporate computers, not personal computers)

 

- Network / Deployment installations of Dragon and /or MS Office apps. Test against a local install of Dragon and the affected apps (if applicable) and advise if issue occurs.

 

- Domain / Group Policies. Have the User log into the computer as a Local Admin and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- 3rd-party apps such as Anti-Virus or backup utilities. Temporarily disable Anti-Virus and backup utilities and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- 3rd-party add-ins in MS Office apps that conflict with the "natspeak" add-in. Temporarily disable all add-ins EXCEPT for the "natspeak" add-in and advise if the issue occurs.

 

- If the issue is specific to MS Outlook or MS Word, Microsoft may have applied an update that is causing the issue. Microsoft would need to be contacted for further assistance.

 


Microsoft also releases Office updates which have been known to cause issues with Dragon. If the issue started occurring after an Office update, we suggest contacting Microsoft for further assistance. 



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 01/15/2021 01:11 PM
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monkey8
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Unbelievable! So there you go there is nothing wrong with the COM add-ins and the problem is obviously caused by just about anything else…



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PG LTU
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Uh wow. Sounds like every big company tech support. They missed the step after the one about trying a reformat and re-install of the OS, namely:
- Faulty or corrupt computer hardware. Buy a new computer and install Dragon and create a new Dragon User Profile and advise if the issue occurs.

-------------------------




PG





Remember folks, my comments and this forum are for entertainment value only, please, no wagering or other reliance on the contents herein.  I permit no commercial use of my ideas (whether expressions or embodiments) without my written consent.

 01/15/2021 02:27 PM
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David.P
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Since I believe that the problem is due to NaturallySpeaking triggering a repagination of the entire document at the very moment it begins to detect any sound (be it dictation or noise), maybe an approach for a solution could be to have Word freeze the ScreenUpdating property until actual dictation is detected, then insert the detection result into the document on screen, and only then have Word resume ScreenUpdating.



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 01/15/2021 04:47 PM
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monkey8
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Like I said above, whether it is re-paginating or not (I believe that was a message you saw at one time or was it something that Joel Gould had said?) the "simple" solution is for the source code only to act on hearing dictation and not to act on hearing noise or voice commands.



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 01/15/2021 05:14 PM
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David.P
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Yes, sometimes for a fraction of a second this message can be seen in Word's status bar, after making a noise or dictating an utterance, and while the page jumps around:

"Word is repaginating [XYZ.doc]. Press escape to cancel."

I agree that your solution would solve the problem of Word jumping back to the off-screen cursor (i.e. text caret) on any noise. I believe that it would however not solve the problem of the page jumping around on nearly every utterance while the text caret is on-screen already (as shown in my above videos)



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 01/15/2021 05:19 PM
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monkey8
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Originally posted by: David.P  … however not solve the problem of the page jumping around on nearly every utterance while the text caret is on-screen already (as shown in my above videos)

 

 

Agreed, that's the new issue. What version of Word are you using in your videos? For example in this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuC-X_2XmJg&feature=youtu.be



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 01/16/2021 06:27 AM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: David.P Yes, sometimes for a fraction of a second this message can be seen in Word's status bar, after making a noise or dictating an utterance, and while the page jumps around:

 

"Word is repaginating [XYZ.doc]. Press escape to cancel."

 

I've just seen that the message does not actually say "repaginating". What it says is:

 

"Word is formatting the document. [a green progress bar appears here] Press Escape to cancel."

 

I however believe that I have seen the "repaginating" message as well at times.



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 01/15/2021 05:23 PM
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David.P
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I'm on the latest Office 365 version.

The jumping happens however just the same in ancient Word 2003.

 

It never happens when the beginning of the document is visible on screen, and its gets worse with the length of the document. I am seeing it on simple 20-pages documents as well however.



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 01/16/2021 06:45 AM
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David.P
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Another find that could help track down the problem:

From the following it is clear that after every dictated utterance, NaturallySpeaking makes Word re-format the entire document:

 

 

I.e. when hovering the "Redo" button in Word after dictating something, it can be seen that the last action was an AutoFormat command issued by NaturallySpeaking.

 

However, when making the page jump around by making a noise into the microphone that is not recognized as dictation, there is nothing to be seen when hovering the Redo button.

 

This means that the jumping page problem is not triggered by the AutoFormat command, but must be caused by something else.



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 01/16/2021 02:00 PM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: Alan Cantor

if I'm dictating text, formatting with commands like "bold XYZ," or navigating around the document with commands such as "go to top of document" and "insert before last action", the tooltip always seems to say this:

 

Repeat AutoFormat (Ctrl + Y)

 

See? That's what I was seeing as well. NaturallySpeaking issues an AutoFormat command to Word after every utterance.

 

Originally posted by: David.P

From the following it is clear that after every dictated utterance, NaturallySpeaking makes Word re-format the entire document.

 

I.e. when hovering the "Redo" button in Word after dictating something, it can be seen that the last action was an AutoFormat command issued by NaturallySpeaking.



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 01/16/2021 11:38 AM
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Interesting!

The full name of Word's AutoFormat command is "FormatAutoFormat." Its default hotkey is Ctrl + Alt + K.

I don't think Dragon triggers AutoFormat when I'm using Microsoft Word (2019). Perhaps there is a Word setting for toggling this feature on and off.

I tested whether Dragon was triggering AutoFormat by replacing the default FormatAutoFormat command with a custom Word command. My replacement command pops up a message box every time FormatAutoFormat is activated.

Pressing Ctrl + Alt + K triggers my command. But dictating within Word does not. So I am reasonably confident that if Dragon is triggering a Word command after every utterance, it's not AutoFormat -- at least not on my machine.

I experience "jumping cursor/page" phenomena in Word, although infrequently. The reason, I think, relates to my working style. I rarely use Dragon "scroll" commands or click on scroll bars. To navigate around Word documents, I pay attention to the insertion point (aka the caret or blinking cursor) and ignore mouse pointers.

To support this approach, I use Dragon's "insert before XYZ" and "insert after XYZ" commands to navigate. To revise, I generally opt for "select" commands: Once text is selected, I replace the selection by dictating over it. For example, to change the beginning of this paragraph from "To support this approach" to "In support of this approach", I say "select to support", pause a split-second, and say "in support of". To move the cursor back to where it was prior to the revision, I say "go back."

I wonder whether the source of the jumping cursor/page problem relates, in general terms, to how Dragon handles (and mishandles) mouse emulation. Navigating around a Word document without pointing and clicking seems to be less problematic.
 01/16/2021 12:04 PM
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David.P
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Thanks for your considerations Alan.

So after you have dictated an utterance and then hover over the "Redo" button in Word, what command is shown in the tooltip?

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 01/16/2021 01:47 PM
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In the tooltip over the "Redo" button, I see the last action I performed...

Repeat Insert Table (Ctrl + Y)
Repeat Select Row (Ctrl + Y)

However, if I'm dictating text, formatting with commands like "bold XYZ," or navigating around the document with commands such as "go to top of document" and "insert before last action", the tooltip always seems to say this:



Repeat AutoFormat (Ctrl + Y)

 

After saving the file, the tooltip says this:

Can't Repeat (Ctrl + Y)



 01/16/2021 05:07 PM
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Alan Cantor
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I'm not seeing "AutoFormat" after every utterance. For example, what happens when you issue a command like "insert a three by three table?"

 

My hunch is that the appearance of AutoFormat in the "Redo" tooltip is a red herring. Perhaps it's something Word does in the background all the time. Kind of like when in a Word document, you type a word followed immediately by two hyphens. Then type another word, and then a space. Word goes back and reformats the two hyphens as an en-dash or an em-dash. Maybe that's what AutoFormat is about.



 01/16/2021 10:22 PM
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Probably, what I am going to say is not going to really help anything. But, here goes anyway.

 

Most of my Dragon work is done on a high-res monitor with two full pages showing in the Print Layout view. I *never* experience the jumping problem except in special circumstances (which I have learned to avoid).

 

I use the latest version of Office 365, DPI 15.3, and a Samson Meteor desk mic (most of the time). I am fortunate to have recently moved into a quiet environment, whereas before there was a busy main road outside of my window with big trucks, Harley-Davidson motorcycles with straight pipes on, and all manner of road noise.

 

My special circumstance was working with two different documents at the same time, on two different monitors. I wanted to scroll down the one document, which was a read-only transcription of a meeting. I would visually read the content and then dictate what I wanted to say into the meeting report document that I was creating. These documents are typically 50 pages long or so.

 

In operation, I have voice commands that switch to the read-only document, page it down or up, and then return to the working document.

 

The special circumstance occurred when I wanted to copy paste something out of the read-only document. Naturally, I was many pages away from the carrot in the read-only document when I wanted to cut paste. I would use my mouse to do the cut/paste, and interacting with with the read-only document caused a jump back to the insertion point. It was frustrating because I had no idea where the insertion point was, and relocating my cut and paste point required some effort because I had no idea where that was within the document.

 

In the end, I modified my paging commands to actually move the insertion point with the page action. That removed the positioning problem (the gap) between the caret and the visible text caused by scrolling the document with the scroll bars or PgDn keys.

 

Probably all of us can agree that the jumping problem is a redisplay problem. In many of the recent videos above, the problem was illustrated by first moving the scrollbar (which created the gap problem), then clicking (which removed the gap problem), then dictating (which of course changed the text content of the document and caused a redisplay cycle to redisplay the text).

 

Although I have no way of proving this, I suspect that Word remembers that the display has been scrolled between text/click interactions. My guess is that Word is telling itself, "Hey, remember that the user has messed with the positioning of the text on the display. Be sure to do a full redisplay cycle next time around." Then, when the interaction comes, even if the interaction is within the viewport, word looks at the flag and re-displays the entire document to re-center the cursor according to its algorithms.

 

Again, I have no way of proving this, but I suspect that all the scrolling that happens is done through the graphics BITBLT method and not necessarily done by Word redisplaying the content of the document. It would not surprise me at all that word keeps an internal bit representation of the document around and only displays the piece of the buffer that it needs to display by copying fast BITBLTs. I do not think the word is redrawing the complete document every time you scroll the page. It is just too fast for that.

 

My guess is that the jumping problem you see is actually were doing a full redisplay of the screen after recalculating the document internally.

 

Lindsay makes a reasonable suggestion that Dragon should only "interact" with Word after a valid recognition of text or command has occurred. That sure sounds like it would delay or avoid jumping issues caused by noise. But I suppose it would not solve unituitive repositioning issues caused by the redisplay.

 

Keep in mind that I never see the jumping issue, even when running two-page Print Layout displays on long documents. I just tried to huff and puff (thinking of Ag :-)) and make noise in a sample document, with no observable effect. The only time I could make the document "jump" was when I 1) scrolled with the scrollbar (thus creating the positioning gap within Word), 2) and then made some kind of a noise so that Dragon could interact with Word, which would 3) redisplay.

 

I could also be wrong, but I think the way Select-and-Say works is that Dragon sends a Windows WM_GET_TEXT message to Word to get the visible text in preparation for doing whatever Dragon is going to do. Probably that's the message that causes Word to have a look at the scroll flag and redraw the document so that it can send the correct data back to Dragon.

 

I am sure I do not know the exact process of what is happening, but I have learned not to create those gaps in my work. :-) They are too frustrating. I hoped this helped in some way.



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 01/17/2021 05:20 AM
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I could also be wrong, but I think the way Select-and-Say works is that Dragon sends a Windows WM_GET_TEXT message to Word to get the visible text in preparation for doing whatever Dragon is going to do. Probably that's the message that causes Word to have a look at the scroll flag and redraw the document so that it can send the correct data back to Dragon.


This is how it works actually. Dragon needs to update the "internal document" (the hidden text buffer) according to the text on the screen, thus accounting for potential user changes induced by user input (e.g. keyboard) since the previous recognition, at the start of the next recognition, so as to get spacing and capitalisation correctly. The "text on the screen" thingy includes the current selection. A selection may be 0 ore more characters long. If it is 0 characters long, it is just the plain insertion point, typically blinking away. But this is where Dragon is supposed to put the next utterance, not where the "cursor" is.

Now, the big question being, whether and how Dragon should know that, while it started listening, you actually didn't mean to say something, but either meant to emit a command, or just made some kind of random noise, and if you didn't mean to say something, so it should not update the screen.

As in: "Okay, you rang my doorbell, and I put on my shoes to go out and open the door for you, but you didn't really mean it".

Long story short: Stop it, if it hurts.

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 01/17/2021 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke but you didn't really mean it". Long story short: Stop it, if it hurts.

 

You are muddying the waters, no one is asking Dragon to differentiate between dictation that you meant and dictation that you did not mean, that is a user error and Dragon cannot compensate for that. However Dragon can differentiate between "???" (No dictation recognised), a voice command and recognised dictation NO PROBLEM and it used to do so. So Dragon should act only on recognised dictation and not on a voice command and not on ???.



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Thanks for making me aware of my intentions. I didn't actually know that I was up to "muddying the waters". But perhaps, I didn't express myself not clearly enough. So let me try again, leaving it for you to decide how successful it will be this time.

 

So let's try looking at recogniser events, for a change. It seems that, in the current implementation, Dragon starts acting like it does on the utterance started event, which comes first in a row before recognition started and up to recognition finished, where it hasn't determined yet whether it has a recognition or just noise, and if a recognition, whether it is a command or dictation. 

 

I would guess that doing away with "???", which is just noise and flagged as a rejection, should be easy to accomplish, but I would also be sceptical about the other ones. And that's what I have been trying to point out.

 

Other than that, I have been trying to point that there are ways around it, and it seems that I am not the only looking at it this way.

 

Thanks for your comments in advance, much appreciated.

 



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 01/17/2021 10:05 AM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: Alan Cantor

> I'm not seeing "AutoFormat" after every utterance. For example, what happens when you issue a command like "insert a three by three table?"

 

Okay, so Dragon doesn't issue the AutoFormat command to Word after every utterance, only after every recognition of actual dictated text. Thanks for making that distinction.

 

 

> My hunch is that the appearance of AutoFormat in the "Redo" tooltip is a red herring. Perhaps it's something Word does in the background all the time. Kind of like when in a Word document, you type a word followed immediately by two hyphens. Then type another word, and then a space. Word goes back and reformats the two hyphens as an en-dash or an em-dash. Maybe that's what AutoFormat is about.

 

There is two different incarnations of AutoFormat in Word, one is "Autoformat As You Type" (this is the one you are referring to), and the other one is "Autoformat" (which must be invoked manually and which is the one Dragon is using, by VBA, after every recognized text dictation):

 

 

 

Originally posted by: kkkwj

> Most of my Dragon work is done on a high-res monitor with two full pages showing in the Print Layout view.

 

This comes close to my typical work setup. Several Word documents on several high-resolution monitors, each Word document showing two (or three) full pages side by side in Page Layout or Print Layout view.

 

 

> I *never* experience the jumping problem except in special circumstances (which I have learned to avoid). I use the latest version of Office 365, DPI 15.3

 

Note that I also never experienced the jumping page problem (in Print Layout view, that is) as long as I still was on DPI 15.3. It only has become as bad as it is now with DPI 15.6.

 

 

> The special circumstance occurred when I wanted to copy paste something out of the read-only document. Naturally, I was many pages away from the caret in the read-only document when I wanted to cut paste. I would use my mouse to do the cut/paste, and interacting with with the read-only document caused a jump back to the insertion point. It was frustrating because I had no idea where the insertion point was, and relocating my cut and paste point required some effort because I had no idea where that was within the document.

 

Yes, this is the "ancient" type of the Jumping Page/Cursor problem (the one where Word instantly jumps back to the off screen caret as soon as it detects any noise). As has been stated many times over the last 1.5 decades, this is of course unnecessary and wrong behavior, and also doesn't occur in any other Select-and-Say compatible program, except in Word. As Lindsay has put it aptly several times: while any program should jump back to the off-screen caret as soon as it has detected any actual user input, be it dictation or (certain) commands -- it should of course not do so in case no input is detected. However, Dragon keeps doing it on the very beginning of any type of noise (and in Microsoft Word only).

 

 

> Probably all of us can agree that the jumping problem is a redisplay problem. In many of the recent videos above, the problem was illustrated by first moving the scrollbar (which created the gap problem), then clicking (which removed the gap problem), then dictating (which of course changed the text content of the document and caused a redisplay cycle to redisplay the text).

 

Yes, and it has been like that at least since version 15.3. However, Print Preview mode in Word did not show any Jumping Page behavior before version 15.6. Now with v.15.6 however, Print Preview mode has become so bad that the page jumps up and down after every utterance or noise, even if neither the scrollbar nor the text caret have been moved beforehand.

 

Note that there is a difference between Page Layout View mode and Print Preview mode in Word, and I'm referring to the latter. Page Layout View (the one where the page jumps only after moving the scroll position) looks like this, with scrolling working line-wise:

 

 

…while Print Preview (the one where the page jumps on every noise) looks like this, and scrolling works only page-wise there:

 

 

 

> Although I have no way of proving this, I suspect that Word remembers that the display has been scrolled between text/click interactions. My guess is that Word is telling itself, "Hey, remember that the user has messed with the positioning of the text on the display. Be sure to do a full redisplay cycle next time around." Then, when the interaction comes, even if the interaction is within the viewport, word looks at the flag and re-displays the entire document to re-center the cursor according to its algorithms.

 

Probably it works like that, however the same context is also applicable when entering text by keyboard, but in this case the page never jumps around, although Word obviously has to redraw the visible text as well when you are only typing -- at least the part behind and below the text caret.

 

 

> My guess is that the jumping problem you see is actually Word doing a full redisplay of the screen after recalculating the document internally. […] > Lindsay makes a reasonable suggestion that Dragon should only "interact" with Word after a valid recognition of text or command has occurred. That sure sounds like it would delay or avoid jumping issues caused by noise. But I suppose it would not solve unituitive repositioning issues caused by the redisplay.

 

Exactly, this would solve the "ancient" type of the Jumping Page/Cursor problem (the one where Word instantly jumps back to the off screen caret as soon as it detects any noise). However, it would not solve the "page jumping up and down on every noise" problem as shown in my videos, which has become really bad starting with v.15.6.

 

 

> Keep in mind that I never see the jumping issue, even when running two-page Print Layout displays on long documents. I just tried to huff and puff (thinking of Ag :-)) and make noise in a sample document, with no observable effect. The only time I could make the document "jump" was when I 1) scrolled with the scrollbar (thus creating the positioning gap within Word), 2) and then made some kind of a noise so that Dragon could interact with Word, which would 3) redisplay.

 

This is what I was seeing as well with v.15.3, however it has become much worse with v.15.6, particularly after also infecting Word's Print Preview mode which was unaffected before, as discussed above and as shown in my videos.

 

 

> I could also be wrong, but I think the way Select-and-Say works is that Dragon sends a Windows WM_GET_TEXT message to Word to get the visible text in preparation for doing whatever Dragon is going to do. Probably that's the message that causes Word to have a look at the scroll flag and redraw the document so that it can send the correct data back to Dragon.

 

Yes, but this behavior is not necessary, as can already be taken from the fact that it does not occur in any other Select-and-Say compatible program like WordPad or DragonPad -- at least not as long you are not using one of the Print or Page View modes, and thus repagination is not necessary.

 

However, Dragon makes Word redraw the entire document (and in doing so makes the page jump around) even when you are only editing your text in Web View or in Normal View mode.

 

 

Long story short, Dragon should A) not do anything on the beginning of any sound reception, instead should only act after having determined whether that sound was noise, dictation or a command; and B) it should not force a  redraw or repagination of the entire Word document after every noise or utterance.



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 01/17/2021 01:04 PM
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Hi David, I see the distinctions that you are making more clearly now. Thank you for taking the time to post the clarifications. In particular, I learned that you have both Print Preview and Print Layout views. I looked around my screen but couldn't see any options for working in Print Preview (still can't, could you please give me a hint on how to get there?). Is working in Print Preview somehow better than working in Print Layout view?


I thought about it overnight and see several aspects of the issue(s). David identifies the ancient and modern versions of the issue. Lindsay identifies a Dragon issue where Dragon shouldn't poke Word unless Dragon has something meaningful to do. RW says the Dragon poke might start with a "beginning of recognition" event, before recognition results are realized. I pointed out that when you create a positioning gap in Word, Word eventually has to close the gap (by jumping) on its next redisplay cycle, no matter how much Dragon delays or filters out noise. And as several people have pointed out, the problem doesn't occur on other editors such as Wordpad or Notepad (but of course, they work with much smaller documents, much less complex editing widgets, and much less complex redisplay algorithms, so I'm not sure they are relevant. Also, Dragon doesn't have a dgnword.dll interface to them.)

A solution (or multiple solutions) would be nice, like fixing the Dragon noise issue. But after 15 years, David says it's even worse in 15.6. Not much hope there. And Lindsay has a direct pipeline to the developers and has spent time with them explaining the issue (which they recognize). But still, no fix for whatever reason. Not much hope visible on the horizon.

My workaround has been to minimize the creation of gaps (human behavior change). It doesn't solve all the issues, but it has been a good strategy for me to minimize the gaps that cause the jumps. Probably not applicable to everyone.


I noticed that the Software Manager in the system tray popped up a notice that 15.61 (full download) was now available, so it is now being rolled out. I read the release notes for new advantages, read this post, and once again was too scared to install it! I couldn't see anything that would be a meaningful improvement for my working patterns.


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 01/17/2021 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by: kkkwj I noticed that the Software Manager in the system tray popped up a notice that 15.61 (full download) was now available, so it is now being rolled out. I read the release notes for new advantages, read this post, and once again was too scared to install it! I couldn't see anything that would be a meaningful improvement for my working patterns.

For me, DPI 15.61 is a big improvement over 15.3. The Advanced Scripting engine is far better, so that commands execute much more quickly and reliably. Also, Dragon works much better in Microsoft Outlook than it did in 15.3 (at least for me, I recognize that others have not found has to be the case).

 01/17/2021 01:44 PM
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David.P
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kkkwj, Print Preview seems to be only accessible via the command search box in Word (or via toolbar customization).

 

You can type "preview" in the search box and then you can select "Print Preview Edit Mode":

 

 

 

You'll have to turn off the Magnifier Tool before you can start editing:

 

 


I used to particularly like it because it absolutely doesn't scroll but only shows "n" full pages. "I used to like it" was before Dragon v.15.6 broke the last 'jump-free resort' which was Print Preview Mode, by starting to make the page jump up and down on every noise also there.

 

Here is another video what the jumping looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2qua02pAME



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 01/17/2021 02:05 PM
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R. Wilke
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On my mission to "muddying the waters", my deepest sympathy goes out to everyone whose Print Preview was broken by the latest update of DPI. Let that be a lesson for the Nuance developers out there, all of them.

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 01/17/2021 02:44 PM
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David.P
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As mentioned earlier, Print Preview was the only mode where the page did not jump around -- before v.15.6.

All other view modes did have the jumping issue already in v.15.3 -- just not as bad as with v.15.6



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 01/18/2021 02:59 AM
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kkkwj
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It's kind of interesting that you're saying Print Preview mode *didn't* have the problem. My redisplay-oriented mind wants to believe that's because Print Preview mode probably has a different redisplay algorithm. Surely Dragon sends the same windows messages to Word in all cases, so it seems unlikely that Dragon has the power to make Word jump in some modes and not in others.

I remember that Windows and Word use the printer driver (yes, weird) for calculations involving fonts and things. I can't remember if it was for PDFs or Word or whatever. But I remember thinking what in the world does a printer driver have to do with editing and not printing? I hazard a guess that the "device context" used to render graphical objects is connected to the printer driver somehow. This was years ago, but I remember I had to install a different printer driver before my editing program would work properly. As Robin used to say back in the 1960s, "Holy Complexity, Batman!" :-)

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 01/18/2021 04:56 AM
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Yes KK that's true. When searching for solutions regarding the repagination problem in Word, I came across some articles saying that people should try changing their default Windows printer to something else.

 

The printer driver having a say in how text appears on screen is due to the fact, inter alia, that you'll want the best possible WYSIWYG connection between what you see on screen and what gets printed afterwards.

However, changing the default printer did not help with the Dragon Jumping Page issue. I tried different (real and virtual) default printers, but the Jumping Page problem always persisted.

Further, I can now confirm with certainty that DPI version 15.0 was completely free of the Jumping Page problem as shown in my videos, which only started with v.15.3 -- and now has become worse with v.15.6.

No matter what layout view mode Word is set to with v.15.0, there is no jumping of the page whatsoever. Note that this relates to the Jumping Page problem where the text caret is on screen, i.e. in the visible part of the document. The ancient Jumping Cursor problem (aka Word jumping back to the off-screen text caret on the beginning of any noise) is absolutely unchanged in every Dragon version since at least version 9 in 2006.

Looking at the release notes for version 15.3, where Nuance boldly claimed "Jumping cursor issues no longer occur", it can be concluded that in trying to solve this ancient "Jumping Cursor" problem, Nuance not only did not solve it -- but additionally and newly created the "Jumping Page" problem. The latter is even more severe than the former in my view, because it makes Dragon near unusable in every document that is longer than a couple of pages, as can be seen in my above videos.

Anyway, as I tried yesterday (on a different machine), v.15.0 is completely free of the Jumping Page issue, while in v.15.3, all view modes of Word except Page Layout view mode already exhibit the problem.

I will therefore go back to v.15.3 as soon as possible, maybe even back to v.15.0, all the more so since v.15.6 has a couple of additional drawbacks, as described in my first post of this thread. One more disadvantage of v.15.6 for me personally is that it completely has lost the ability to dictate into the DeepL Translator App, although Dragon Bar claims to have Full Text Control in this App.

 

@Nuance Team, whatever has been changed in DgnWord.dll or regarding the interaction between Word and Dragon, respectively, starting from v.15.3 and more so with v.15.6, undo it and go back to the way this worked in v.15.0, because 15.0 was the least broken version of the Microsoft Word dictation function in the history of NaturallySpeaking.



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 01/18/2021 02:04 PM
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David+, you've done an excellent job (with certainty) of identifying the differences between off-screen and on-screen jumping issues and the relative behavior among version 15.0, 15.3, and 15.6. I hope that your work helps the Dragon developers to fix or mitigate the issues.

Matt, > For me, DPI 15.61 is a big improvement over 15.3. The Advanced Scripting engine is far better, so that commands execute much more quickly and reliably.

Matt, does this mean the new WinWrap Basic has been added to 15.6? I think I'm still running the old (Sax?) Basic in 15.3. Getting a whole new Basic engine seems like a good reason to upgrade.

 

Lindsay, > "Even easier is just to start scrolling through Microsoft Word document using the scrollbars with a mouse (not by voice command) with the Dragon microphone switched on and the second you make a noise or issue a voice command Dragon starts the jumping pages…" 

 

I confirm that this behavior also exists on my machine. Once I realized that you meant issue a mouse click by voice, the jump occurred. You're completely right - how do they expect users to scroll down by voice and make a mouse click?

 

It's the same issue that I labelled "my special circumstance" in one of my other postings. I was scrolling down by voice on a second document and eventually wanted to click by voice in it. But since the jumps were so awful, I stopped scrolling by voice. Instead, I did "move down 20 lines" by voice and thereby moved the insertion point as I scrolled. 



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 01/18/2021 04:41 PM
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Matt, does this mean the new WinWrap Basic has been added to 15.6? I think I'm still running the old (Sax?) Basic in 15.3. Getting a whole new Basic engine seems like a good reason to upgrade.

Yes, that's my understanding. For some reason, I can't find that in the technote, but I'm sure I read it when 15.6 came out.

 01/18/2021 06:25 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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This is a great reason for obtaining Ver. 15.61. Nuance finally retired SAX scripting with Ver. 15.3. DMPE 4.3 and Dragon 15.6 utilize WinWrap Basic; the same scripting engine we use in KnowBrainer 2017 (w/2020 AI Commands)



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 01/18/2021 07:10 PM
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Matt_Chambers
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt This is a great reason for obtaining Ver. 15.61. Nuance finally retired SAX scripting with Ver. 15.3. DMPE 4.3 and Dragon 15.6 utilize WinWrap Basic; the same scripting engine we use in KnowBrainer 2017 (w/2020 AI Commands)

 

Absolutely.  I find my Advanced Scripting commands are far more reliable.  In particular, The SendKeys instruction works perfectly.  In fact, I've replaced all my SendSystemKeys with SendKeys.

 01/19/2021 11:27 AM
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David.P
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I'd be interested to know (in order to inform Nuance Tech Support accordingly) whether anybody does not see any page jumping issue with Dragon v15.3 or v15.6, when carrying out the following steps:

 

1. Open a file with multiple pages, preferably more than ten pages, in any version of Microsoft Word (for example the attached file "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.docx")

2. Scroll down approximately halfway through the document

3. Place the text cursor (i.e. the blinking text caret | ) anywhere in the visible part of the document by mouse click

4. Dictate a short utterance or make any kind of noise into the microphone, e.g. by blowing -- the jumping occurs here

5. Scroll the document a couple of lines up or down using the scroll bars or the mouse wheel and repeat steps 3 through 5.

 

Thanks






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 01/19/2021 04:40 PM
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Matt_Chambers
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Originally posted by: David.P I'd be interested to know (in order to inform Nuance Tech Support accordingly) whether anybody does not see any page jumping issue with Dragon v15.3 or v15.6, when carrying out the following steps:

 

 

 

1. Open a file with multiple pages, preferably more than ten pages, in any version of Microsoft Word (for example the attached file "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.docx")

 

2. Scroll down approximately halfway through the document

 

3. Place the text cursor (i.e. the blinking text caret | ) anywhere in the visible part of the document by mouse click

 

4. Dictate a short utterance or make any kind of noise into the microphone, e.g. by blowing -- the jumping occurs here

 

5. Scroll the document a couple of lines up or down using the scroll bars or the mouse wheel and repeat steps 3 through 5.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

I tested this and the jumping cursor occurred. I guess I don't usually experience it, because I usually navigate by moving the text cursor to a particular spot, rather than using the mouse or mouse commands.

 01/19/2021 01:00 PM
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I tried your experiment. I'm using Word 2019 in Page Layout and in Draft modes.

The moment I begin dictating - before Dragon has recognized the utterance as a command, as text, or as noise - the page sometimes "jumps" one (or more) lines. It appears that the position of the insertion point shifts to be closer to the centre of the screen.

The jump doesn't always happen, especially if I haven't been scrolling. The effect happens more regularly, at least for me, when the insertion point is near the top or bottom edge of the window.

After I use the mouse wheel to scroll, the jump occurs every time (or almost every time) at the start of the next utterance.

The far-from-ideal workaround: minimize scrolling by moving the insertion point rather than by repositioning the mouse pointer:

insert before XXX
insert after XXX

move [up or down] [1 - 999] [lines or paragraphs]
move [left or right] [1 - 999] [characters or words or sentence or paragraphs]

When NOT navigating by voice, the effect is minimized when I use keyboard commands rather than mouse actions:

Left and right arrow (move by character)
Up and down arrow (move by line)

Ctrl + left and right arrow (move by word)
Ctrl + up and down arrow (move by paragraph)

Home (go to start of line)
End (go to end of line)

Ctrl + Home (go to start of document)
Ctrl + End (go to end of document)

Page Up (go up one screen)
Page Down (go down one screen)

etc.
 01/19/2021 01:40 PM
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David.P
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Thank you for trying it on your machine Alan.

 

Originally posted by: Alan Cantor 

The moment I begin dictating - before Dragon has recognized the utterance as a command, as text, or as noise - the page sometimes "jumps" one (or more) lines. It appears that the position of the insertion point shifts to be closer to the centre of the screen.


The jump doesn't always happen, especially if I haven't been scrolling. The effect happens more regularly, at least for me, when the insertion point is near the top or bottom edge of the window.

After I use the mouse wheel to scroll, the jump occurs every time (or almost every time) at the start of the next utterance.

 

This is exactly identical to what I'm seeing.

 

Thanks in advance for results from other forum members.



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 01/19/2021 06:48 PM
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David.P
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Thank you Matt.

Looking forward to further results from @everybody. 



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 01/21/2021 07:00 AM
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David.P
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A friendly *bump* along with a reminder to everyone reading this to take the test as described in the first post of this thread. 

 

Nuance Support keeps claiming that my computer setup is to blame for the problem, and I'd like to prove them otherwise, in order to hopefully make Nuance recognize that the jumping page problem (which is different from the ancient jumping cursor problem) is a general, new bug in NaturallySpeaking that has started with v.15.3.



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 01/21/2021 08:50 AM
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Mav
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I've tried to reproduce the jumping cursor problem and was only partially successful using a DLG 15.60.200.015 with Word 365 (Version 2012/Build 13530.20376).

I had started Dragon (mike off), opened the Dolor ipsum document, scrolled down to page 17, put the cursor after some word, turned on the microphone and dictated a few words.

 

Yes, the visible part of the document did change (so it looked like jumping), but the cursor remained where I set it and my words were written exactly where they should be.

 

Repeating the test I found that - at least on my machine - the "jumping cursor" rather seems to be unneccessary scrolling of the visible document area.

 

I don't know about Word in detail, but with Windows RichTextBoxes there's a method ScrollToCaret which brings the caret (text cursor) into view. It doesn't change the cursor position but adjusts scrolling inside the view port to make the caret visible.

Obviously, this method should only perform scrolling if the caret is not visible at the moment, but with Word exactly this seems to happen.

 

In the beginning, my caret was in the middle of the screen, but after dictation the viewport would either scroll down so that the caret was in the third line from the top or it would scroll up so that the caret was in the fifth-or-so but last line.

 

When the caret indeed is off-screen, then it's reasonable to scroll it into view so the user can see what Dragon recognized. Since I'm pretty sure Nuance didn't reinvent the wheel and that there is some method in Word to bring the caret into view as well, I think they're just always calling this method before making a change to the document (or even before starting a recognition). If this is the case, then Microsoft is to blame for unneccessarily scrolling the viewport when the cursor is already visible.

 

Does anyone else get these results?

 

hth,

mav

 

--Edited for typo



 01/21/2021 10:06 AM
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David.P
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Thank you for posting your results Mav.

 

Originally posted by: Mav

Yes, the visible part of the document did change [when dictating a few words] (so it looked like jumping), but the cursor remained where I set it and my words were written exactly where they should be.

 

Repeating the test I found that - at least on my machine - the "jumping cursor" rather seems to be unneccessary scrolling of the visible document area.

 

In the beginning, my caret was in the middle of the screen, but after dictation the viewport would either scroll down so that the caret was in the third line from the top or it would scroll up so that the caret was in the fifth-or-so but last line.

 

Correct, this is exactly what everyone else so far has been seeing, and this is the jumping page problem (which is new starting with Dragon v.15.3)

 

Originally posted by: Mav

I don't know about Word in detail, but with Windows RichTextBoxes there's a method ScrollToCaret which brings the caret (text cursor) into view. It doesn't change the cursor position but adjusts scrolling inside the view port to make the caret visible. When the caret indeed is off-screen, then it's reasonable to scroll it into view so the user can see what Dragon recognized. 

 

Yes, this is correct behaviour and every editor does this.

 

However, only Word (and only starting with Dragon v.15.3) scrolls up and/or down on every utterance or noise even when the caret is on screen, as can be seen in the videos I made.

 

As an interim result, I note that no one yet seems to have been able to confirm that they are not experiencing this problem.

 

Please start here for making your test run.



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 02/03/2021 04:00 PM
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Suzanne Suzanne..
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In word (office 2019) I have the jumping page problem with both 15.3 and 15.6.1 and I don't know if it's related, but when I open a Word document, I can only use the Page Down command four times and then it stops working. Both these problems only happen when I am in Web Layout and do not happen when I am in Print Layout. When I am in Web Layout and have the problem, another workaround is Move Down <n > Lines.

 02/03/2021 04:29 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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                    Welcome (See Mission Statement)

 

Since you have KnowBrainer 2017, you have a couple more options. We just tested the KnowBrainer Page Down <1to100> command several times in a Microsoft Word document in Web view. You should be able to say Page Down 4 as many times as you like.

 

The Dragon move down <1to20> comes in handy when you want to move down a halfpage but Nuance slowed it down so that it would work everywhere. In places like Word, you can do this 10 times faster by substituting your KnowBrainer <direction><1to100> command. Try saying Down 21 and you'll see what we mean.



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 01/21/2021 10:51 AM
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Edgar
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I downloaded and opened your "Lauren Ipsen" (sic.) Word document, allowed editing, used the mouse to drag the scrollbar down about halfway, used the mouse to place the editing cursor (caret) somewhere near the middle left-hand page (there were two pages side-by-side and about 70% displayed vertically and 100% horizontally). I blew into my mic - the page jumped 2 or 3 lines. I blew into my mic again and the page did not jump. I used the scroll wheel on my mouse to change the visibly displayed text. Again, I blew into my mic and the page jumped; inserting some text at that time did not cause the page to jump again. I tried various combinations of where I put the editing cursor and the jumping page results were 100% repeatable: after any scrolling (using the mouse to manipulate the scrollbar, using the mouse wheel to scroll, saying "page up/down", using the "page up/down" keys on my keyboard) the next time Dragon started to try to recognize a sound (blowing into the mic is a good choice, but I also tried coughing and dictating actual easily recognizable text) the page jumped a few lines (where a few lines could be any amount between 2 and 10 - you can tell because the mouse pointer and the editing cursor are no longer in sync vertically).

I am using DragonĀ® Professional Individual 15.3 (reverted from 15.6, never tried 15.61) and Word via Office 365 subscription installed locally on my hard drive and I am NOT signed in to my Office account. Windows 10 Professional, version 10.0.17134.

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 01/21/2021 11:20 AM
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David.P
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Thank you Edgar. Your test result is 100% identical to what I am seeing and what is shown in this video of my playlist regarding the jumping page issue.

 

The interim result, i.e. nobody having reported that they are not seeing this problem, is still valid.

 

--
Start here for making your test run.



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 01/25/2021 07:58 AM
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monkey8
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Hi David,

 

I would confirm all your findings including your test. Every single installation of Word and Outlook has this issue old and new symptoms of jumping pages. People who cannot reproduce it are either not following the test procedure correctly or don't understand the issue. Nuance are blinkered when it comes to this problem but I have passed on your videos to my contacts anyway, not for the first time. Fortunately my work involves very little editing of large word documents.

 

Good luck,

Lindsay



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 01/25/2021 09:43 AM
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David.P
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Thank you Lindsay, for confirming the issue once more, and also for passing it on again to your contacts.

 

I have also opened a new support case with Nuance on this problem.

 

In the meantime I have tested it on an old laptop with Windows 7 and fresh blank Dragon user files, and sure enough the page jumped just the same there.

 

--
Anyone who wants to check/see the issue, start here for a test run.



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 01/26/2021 02:20 PM
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David.P
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Here is another video, this time showing the jumping page issue in Outlook, where it can become even worse than in Word. It can be seen how the dictation result disappears below the bottom of the window, and is only shown for a fraction of a second during actual dictation.

 

Of course it would be good to know whether anybody can reproduce this at their end. The text that has been used for composing this e-mail is attached below.

 

The issue can be reproduced by scrolling about halfway down through the email, positioning the text cursor (the blinking text caret I) in the lower half of the visible text, and then dictating short utterances at a time.

 

The page jumps away after every utterance.






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 01/27/2021 03:04 PM
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Diogenes
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I just installed the new version. I had no problems whatsoever. If problems develop I will post again.
 01/27/2021 03:42 PM
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David.P
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Thanks for posting. So is this more of a general first impression that you are having, or did you follow the steps posted here, and still not see the jumping page issue? 



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 02/01/2021 03:47 AM
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David.P
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Originally posted by:Lunis Orcutt


Ahhh... we see what you mean. [...] It is a jumping page problem where the page jumps up and down. We commonly experience this problem[...]. 

 

We run into a similar problem here when attempting to edit text near the beginning of a message [in Outlook], when the message extends below the end of the box. Although our cursor drops the dictation into the right place, the window scrolls to the bottom and we can't see our text [see video]. This is actually a lot worse than the Microsoft Word problem which simply has a rather annoying case of the jitters. [...] 

 

We additionally concur that Nuance could have and should have fixed this problem [...]. There was a time when Dragon would not have even been released until this type of problem was fixed because it would have been too embarrassing for the manufacturer.

 

Thanks to Lunis for also fully confirming the Jumping Page problem both in Word and in Outlook.

 

--
Anyone who wants to check/see the issue, start here for a test run.



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 02/01/2021 11:37 AM
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bethannon2
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Most of this thread has concerned the cursor movement, but the OP also mentioned that with 15.6, "Tray Icon Only" no longer really functions. It can be manually set, but to reach any Dragon menu items, the dock bar has to be turned on again.

Anyone have information on how I can go back to the "tray icon only" with a right-click Dragon menu on the tray icon?



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 02/01/2021 11:42 AM
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David.P
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Bet, that's not possible anymore -- another annoyance of v.15.6



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Suzanne Suzanne..
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I am wondering other people's experiences with 15.6 .1, if they also are having what was originally mentioned about Dragon stops recognizing dictation a couple times a day and has to be restarted? When I started using this Dragon 15.6.1 version two weeks ago, I also began using Know brainer and Speech Start. Since then, I've had more such problems with Dragon and I'm not sure which program is causing it. I like the additional features with Know Brainer and Speech Start and want to know if the problem lies with Dragon.

 02/06/2021 11:57 AM
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mareid
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Hi David,

I just want to confirm that I also see the "jumping page" and "jumping cursor" problems using Dragon 15.3 with Microsoft Word (2016). It has been there as long as I can remember. It definitely isn't a new feature of Dragon 15.61, as I have never had that version on my system. Similar to you, the jumping occurs whether or not I have dictated an actual word. Any tiny amount of noise entering the microphone causes it to occur, exactly as shown in your videos. It is often very annoying.
 02/07/2021 06:58 AM
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David.P
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Thank you mareid, for reporting that you are also seeing the Jumping Page problem (as shown in the videos).

 

Nuance Support has acknowledged the issue in the meantime, and they also seem to have understood that this is different from the older Jumping Cursor problems, and also not the same as the ancient Jump Back to Caret problem.

 

In order to emphasize the necessity for this to be fixed: Anyone else who wants to check the issue, start here for a test run.



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 02/08/2021 10:33 AM
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PG LTU
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Originally posted by: David.P Nuance ... seem to have understood that this is different from the older Jumping Cursor problems, and also not the same as the ancient Jump Back to Caret problem.

 

Yes, finally.  This has been a conundrum for years as these issues have been mostly conflated (and barely understood) among most of us.  David your work on teasing it out has been extraordinary.  And I am really digging your User icon!



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 02/08/2021 11:22 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: PG LTUI am really digging your User icon!

+1



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 02/08/2021 04:53 PM
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David.P
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Thanks again gents for confirming the issue.


Nuance now should have every information needed to fix this bug that can make Dragon practically unusable, at least when working with text that is longer than a few paragraphs. 



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 02/09/2021 11:25 AM
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drrunev
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I have exactly the same annoying problem with jumping pages in Microsoft Word 365. Dragon version 15.3. I tried the suggestion earlier using View -draft mode and going into Options (see picture) and disabling Repagination . However I noticed something: it is automatically turned on again once I start dictating or uttering any voice. 

 02/09/2021 01:08 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We cannot view your attached picture. See How to Attach Pictures

 



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 02/10/2021 12:40 PM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: drrunev

I tried the suggestion earlier using View -draft mode and going into Options (see picture) and disabling Repagination. However I noticed something: it is automatically turned on again once I start dictating or uttering any voice.  

 

This is probably what you mean - Background Repagination:

 

 

Background Repagination can only be turned off when in Draft View mode in Word. It normally also would turn only on automatically when you leave Draft View mode for Page Layout view mode or other view modes of word.

 

However your experience might be related to the fact that the Jumping Page problem in Word is triggered by Dragon doing a Background Repagination or a Background Formatting of the entire document on the beginning of every noise or utterance.



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 02/11/2021 10:27 AM
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wristofdoom
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With version 15.6, the latter problem now has also infected Outlook 365, which was problem-free with version 15.3 in my experience.

I have the problem you described in Microsoft Word (365 business), but I've never seen the same issue in Outlook 365.

How do you replicate the issue in Outlook? Do you need to scroll far down an email and be typing in the middle of the content, like in Microsoft Word?





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 02/11/2021 10:50 AM
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David.P
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Wristof, the issue can be reproduced in Outlook like shown in this video, i.e. by scrolling down to around the middle of an email, placing the text cursor/caret in the lower half of the mail text, and then making a noise or dictating something.

 

The place where you are dictating even disappears completely below the lower window border, as can be seen in the video. Lunis has confirmed the exact same problem.



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 02/12/2021 10:36 AM
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David.P
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Originally posted by: Scribe

 

Here is another report of the Jumping Page problem in Microsoft Word: I loaded DPI 15.61 about ten days ago (i5 Intel processor, MSI motherboard approximately five years old, 8 GB of RAM, Windows 10, Office 10). I use Word with voice commands only, so I can't speak to interplay with a mouse. But the page moves up and down unmercifully whenever I edit documents of more than a single page, even when my edits are on the same page that I am viewing.

 

The situation is worst using the view that allows you to see facing pages instead of a single page. For reference, I use Print View for both. I want to raise another consideration that I don't think has been mentioned.

 

I think the Jumping Page problem could raise medical concerns for people with photosensitive epilepsy (epilepsy that can be set off by blinking lights). Maybe some of the doctors who frequent this board could comment, but I would think it might be wise for Nuance to issue a trigger warning about this possibility to its existing and potential new customers. One time last week I was editing heavily in Word in the double-page view, and the Jumping Page problem degenerated into a regular pattern of flashes one second apart. I was able to stop it by telling Dragon to go to sleep and then to wake up, but I'm guessing that this could be particularly problematic for people with epilepsy.

 

Thank you Scribe, that's an important consideration. While the constant jumping of the page on every noise or utterance can literally make a person feel physically ill, implications for people with epilepsy could be yet more severe.



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 02/17/2021 05:30 PM
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PG LTU
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Jumping in (pun not intended) because this has been illuminating. Sure, I see the same problem forever but the taxonomy of different flavors has reminded me of many a Dragon glitch.  My old scroll box application was at least in part developed to scroll in word while dragging the insertion point cursor along to minimize the jumping disruption.

 

Here is something slightly new.  I was dictating a reply in the message preview pane of Outlook when the insertion point just randomly jumped back to the beginning of the message and placed my dictated utterance there.  This happened at 11:08:47 when there was a 5 sec break and I next said "under the DSA" which got properly transcribed, with a leading cap, at the start of the message.

 

 

The first line is there because it came out auto-formatted as an address and I thought that was funny.



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Remember folks, my comments and this forum are for entertainment value only, please, no wagering or other reliance on the contents herein.  I permit no commercial use of my ideas (whether expressions or embodiments) without my written consent.



 02/18/2021 12:09 PM
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kkkwj
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For what it's worth, I am experiencing WAY more hangs and jumps and misfired commands (Dragon always picks the "up" command macro) since I installed DPI 15.61. Doing that installation was definitely not one of my smarter moves. I would go back to 15.3 in a heartbeat if I wasn't scared about having to retrain all my custom words. Someone (probably correctly) observed that I "could not use my 15.61 profile in 15.3" (whereas 15.3->15.61 was automatically handled by the upgrade). (sigh)

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 02/18/2021 12:39 PM
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David.P
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I could be wrong, but I believe that even v.15.0 handles the user files of 15.6 without problem.

I went back to v.15.0 a couple of days ago and did not have any indication of loss of accuracy or training. Note however that I'm only using plain dictation and no commands whatsoever.

 

While Outlook now is crashing all the time when dictating, at least the Jumping Page issue in Word is completely gone, what a relief.



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Edits due to outdated forum software



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