KnowBrainer Speech Recognition
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Topic Title: Are there any video courses on getting started with voice?
Topic Summary: If not, why not?
Created On: 07/07/2021 07:03 PM
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 07/07/2021 07:03 PM
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kkkwj
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I was wondering today about video courses on getting started with using voice for general computing, document writing, and programming.

 

I don't even recall seeing any forum users ask about such a course.

 

I don't recall reading or hearing about any, and I wondered why. Could anyone who is involved in this area or assisting people in this area please comment? No demand? Too difficult to make such a course? High cost? Impractical for new voice users? 

 



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 07/07/2021 11:03 PM
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Alan Cantor
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There are plenty of instructional videos about Dragon floating around. Not sure about courses, though.
 07/08/2021 11:52 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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In our opinion, all of the Dragon instructional videos, we have seen, fall short of the mark and time-consuming. We also see no advantage to physical on-site training which we discontinued in 2003. Most Dragon resellers/trainers have gone out of business but there are still a few Dragon certified VARs who offer Virtual On-site Training. You might consider starting off an inexpensive KnowBrainer $20 Dragon Installation/Training Guide, which is complementary to our Dragon customers.



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 07/08/2021 02:25 PM
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Tiger Feet
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Hi KKKWJ,

Who would these video courses be for? You have been a member of these forums since 2015. By my reckoning that is 6 years of experience in these forums alone. Surely, you must be pretty, proficient yourself? Or are you talking about others?

If you are talking about other newbies, the best way to start is to get your newbie to buy the latest edition of Dragon. Get them to install it and update it to the latest update edition (15.61) at present and then get them to practice, practice, practice.

When you first put Dragon on your computer, before you are led to make a user profile, Dragon actually gives you a little tutorial to start with. That should be your start point and then I suggest your newbies join this website and ask as many and any questions they need to. They will then soon learn to climb the learning curve. That's how I and many other people in these forums started I expect. I did not need any video courses for document writing.

I hate to think how much documentation into how to use speech recognition has gone down in these forums over the years. Lunis probably knows the answer to that but the advice has to run into the millions or even more.

Cheers



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Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone



 07/08/2021 03:07 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Originally posted by: Tiger Feetthe best way to start is to get your newbie to buy the latest edition of Dragon. Get them to install it and update it to the latest update edition (15.61)

 



One tiny correction… When purchasing Dragon 15 now, you will receive a full copy of Ver. 15.61, which doesn't need updating, from KnowBrainer, Nuance and probably most Nuance certified resellers.



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 07/09/2021 04:55 AM
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kkkwj
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Hi Tiger, You correctly surmise that my question wasn't for me; I have a couple of decades with Dragon under my belt. And I don't have any total newbies to train, either. My question was more about figuring out if there was a way to share my knowledge in a form that would bring in a few bucks of revenue. Everyone's comments above more or less apply to total newbies who just bought Dragon, but I was thinking about how to go further than that. We have all learned "the hard way" by just hacking away and asking questions and making slow progress in tiny steps. But that's a pretty tiresome way to learn, I think.

I also think that even though I've been using Dragon for a couple of decades, I could still learn a fair bit from Rob (SP Pro), Lunis, Lindsay, Edgar, and all the other experts about the most efficient ways to work with voice. (My attempt at the "see how the experts do it" video thread was to create a bit of a resource for people who wanted to learn more that way.

The best resource I've ever seen was Kim Patch's Utter Command software and huge training manuals (now out of date for Windows 10). But even reading those was a journey. After watching something like RW's video on Dragon Capture or some of Rob's SP videos on how their programs should be used, I am always convinced that learning from experts would be much easier with video courses.

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 07/09/2021 11:44 AM
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dilligence
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This is exactly what the SP Custom Dragon® Video Tutorials service does:

 

 

 

 

And here is the link to the Custom Dragon® Tutorials webpage:

 

http://www.speechproductivity.eu/tutorialsupport.html



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 07/09/2021 12:24 PM
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Tiger Feet
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Firstly, some people have Dragon because of its efficiency. However, some people as me, have it because of necessity. There is no other way of communicating in this way for someone such as I. When you put it in those terms, I guess the meaning changes on how you learn and we all have our own learning curve.

Before I joined these forums, I learnt my speech recognition with Windows Speech Recognition back in 2008 as I could not afford Dragon at that time. Nevertheless, this laid the ground works for me before I could eventually afford my first Dragon edition. Making the transition from WSR to Dragon was easy for me because WSR is far more trying to learn that Dragon imho.

When I eventually joined, these forums, the only 2 experts at that time that helped me big time the most were Lindsay & Lunis. This is way before the likes of SP Pro, DragonCapture and even SpeechStart + were around. In fact, Rob hadn't even joined these forums then. Lindsay has probably coached me from the day I joined outside of the forums. He is one of the longest standing residents of these forums. Lunis for his generosity by giving out KnowBrainer to the disabled who can barely afford it. Plus, his unwavering advice for God knows how many years. You can couple that with the forums themselves with advice from the likes of Rüdiger, Alan Cantor and Chuck at the time who have also been in these forums the longest. Chuck obviously does not frequent these forums any more. Then there was me and my dogged determination to become very proficient with this software.

Obviously, I have done plenty of reading about speech recognition in between then until now but I did not need any other resources, videos etc. as much and I can use speech recognition just fine thanks without those needs.

Don't get me wrong, the videos that were put out on the forums were great albeit for the purposes of some of the proprietors to sell their wares. In looking at them though, there is nothing there that I did not know already save for the actual workings of the software themselves. And, as Alan has already pointed out, there has always been hundreds of videos that are already out there on the Internet that deal with speech recognition and its workings.

Rob, nice try but we all know that putting up your videos in these forums is a marketing ploy with a platform for you to sell your wares. Now there is nothing wrong with that but why can't you just be honest about it?

Fortunately, I do not need your Dragon skills as I believe the only way to truly learn to use speech recognition is by sheer hard work.

Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

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 07/09/2021 01:51 PM
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kkkwj
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I could be wrong, but I suppose it's fair to say that people will make use of whatever is available at the time of their need. Everyone will consume the available resources in whatever way makes sense for them. In the old days, there were no alternative resources! Just Dragon (and Lunis and Lindsay :-)) and then KB, and so on. Over time, more resources of different kinds became available, more utilities, more forum members, and so on. It's the natural way of life. Industries develop; product offerings grow; hopefully, the market size grows as well. It's obvious that a good video course on a relevant topic is obviously a better learning experience than endlessly searching the net for some coherent quality training information. If I had a choice years ago, I would have gladly paid a few bucks to have someone knowledgeable show me the fastest way to get to where I wanted to go. (I would still do that, BTW. I've taken many video courses on many things to move forward faster.)


On the forum product postings topic: For my two bits, I think it's great that Lunis set up the forum categories to give spaces to Dragon, KB, third-party utilities of all kinds, and so on. I'm grateful that Lunis enables the forums for everyone and all voice-related products to help build the community. I'm also grateful for the utility-makers like RW and Rob posting about their tools from time to time. Otherwise, how would I have found out about them so easily? And how would new users and I find out about the latest tools and offerings available without doing a lot of unnecessary research? I look forward to reading about new products and new methods, and Rob is the master at making new and useful utilities - he cranks out new products every year to help people. (And as Lunis, RW, Rob, and Lindsay will assert (and have asserted), you don't make a lot of money making voice utilities for voice-only users. I think it's more of a love of the work sort of thing than it is about money. Haha, compare that attitude with Nuance or Micro$oft - big companies are naturally more focused on revenue.) But I digress from the original thread topic, so I will stop here.

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 07/09/2021 09:13 PM
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ax
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I must concur with above ^^^.

I am not necessarily a fan of aggressive marketing myself (not implying anything about SP Suite and its proprietor).  Personally, the subtle and "passive" marketing style of some of the resellers/trainers is a bit more to my taste (one first digests the substance of their advice, and can't help but then notices the signature underneath).

But if one believes in one's fruits of labour, there is nothing wrong with being a little loud in letting others know about them.

The strength of a certain melting pot place is indeed its "diversity" (a "rule-based one" at that).  To the credit of the operator of this forum, this is indeed an inclusive platform.  Inclusiveness attracts talent.  And talent comes in many forms, which in turn attracts audience.  Audience includes folks like myself, whose "raison d'etre" for visiting in the first place, is to learn what helps me.

Reaching audience is marketing.  Therefore dispensing advice is also a form of marketing.

Now if Grande(iose) Bourgeoisie are tripping over each other to launch themselves into orbit (so they can incorporate on asteroids in order to retain tax haven status, for Sleepie and IRS are apparently eyeing stationary rocks such as the Grand Cayman), everyone should at least cut the Petits and Proles some slack for labouring to monetize a little on earth.

P.S., with trillions of of worthless videos and drone footage being pumped out all over the world to oversell houses, a few more CPU/GPU cycles spent on producing niche Dragon-tutorial videos is hardly worth guilt-tripping anyone.

Just 2 cents post-call.



 07/10/2021 10:08 AM
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Tiger Feet
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If I had a choice years ago, I would have gladly paid a few bucks to have someone knowledgeable show me the fastest way to get to where I wanted to go. (I would still do that, BTW. I've taken many video courses on many things to move forward faster.)


I did not have the luxury of being able to pay a few bucks to someone knowledgeable. What I did have and I am very grateful for was the free help I got and still get from Lindsay as well as the free advice in the forums. That and grit determination to learn myself over time was how I became proficient with the use of Dragon.

Videos are a good idea to get you started initially but the way you really learn is by going through the curve. By that I mean, looking and taking in various tutorials that are available. If there is something you want to do or get from A to B, search for it in the forums. If you cannot find anything by searching, ask the question directly in the forums. By the very act of practising yourself, you will find yourself experimenting with different phrases and commands anyway. That's how you learn, practice, practice, practice. There are no shortcuts in my opinion to learning this art.


On the forum product postings topic: For my two bits, I think it's great that Lunis set up the forum categories to give spaces to Dragon, KB, third-party utilities of all kinds, and so on. I'm grateful that Lunis enables the forums for everyone and all voice-related products to help build the community. I'm also grateful for the utility-makers like RW and Rob posting about their tools from time to time. Otherwise, how would I have found out about them so easily? And how would new users and I find out about the latest tools and offerings available without doing a lot of unnecessary research?


I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, the third-party add-ons definitely enhance Dragon and I think the likes of Lindsay, Rüdiger & Rob are very clever. In fact, as soon as I get the chance, I plan to try out Rob's software. I have already tried DragonCapture and it is an ingenious piece of software. As for SpeechStart +, I would be lost without it and believe that it is a must have add-on for Dragon.

That's not the argument. I'm talking about the best way to climb the steep learning curve to master Dragon in my opinion. Third-party add-ons are great but you need to learn how to use Dragon first before you, know-how to use those third-party add-ons with Dragon.

you don't make a lot of money making voice utilities for voice-only users. I think it's more of a love of the work sort of thing than it is about money.


I find that a bit naïve to say, 'it's more of the love of the work than it is about the money.' Let's say it as it is, it's about the money and possibly the prestige I'm willing to bet. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with making money for the work you have put into your software. I have no gripe about that.

Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone



 07/10/2021 04:54 PM
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R. Wilke
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I find that a bit naïve to say, 'it's more of the love of the work than it is about the money.' Let's say it as it is, it's about the money and possibly the prestige I'm willing to bet. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with making money for the work you have put into your software.


Tiger feet,

Bear in mind that selling software such as SpeechStart+ at $40 per copy or such as DragonCapture at $35 per copy equates to selling them at cost, unless you sell at least 1000 copies per year probably. That's because of the expense spent on such amenities as a digital certification, a licence module also allowing for automated trialling, and a full-fledged installer, which, in combination with the previous two, is there to enhance the user experience. All of these amenities come at tremendously high costs, provided that they are pieces of professional software in industrial strength themselves, with digital certification validation taking the lead. And as I said, it really takes selling large amounts of copies before the ROI even starts kicking in.

Things are different though, quite obviously, if people like Rob with his SP Pro simply ignore and neglect providing end-users with such facilities, which, in my opinion, is definitely a no-no. But to each his own.

Personally, not really making money from my developing doesn't actually worry me, as long as my developing costs, in terms of the money I have to spend to even start distributing my products, not accounting for my time, are covered. It's because I do have a full-time job, and this is how I make my living. You may call it a labour of love or not, but for me, developing means spare time and a way to keep the brain cells acting.



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 07/11/2021 08:39 AM
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Tiger Feet
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Fair enough Rüdiger, I have no reason to doubt you. If you are really not making any money by doing this, my hat goes off to you as I think you should be. As I said, there is nothing wrong with making a profit for the work that you do.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers



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Tiger Feet

| DPG 15.7.1 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows 10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel® Core™ i9 Ten-Core Processor i9-10900K (3.7GHz) 20MB Cache |  32GB RAM. | 250GB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 2300MB/W) Boot Drive | 1TB SAMSUNG 970 EVO PLUS M.2, PCIe NVMe SSD (up to 3500MB/R, 3300MB/W) Storage Drive | Sennheiser D10 USB Wireless Microphone



 07/11/2021 11:58 AM
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ax
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Chiming in a little:

1. Knowing DragonCapture exists gives me a "peace of mind". I am not sure if DC has fully overcome the problems client-side on-device Dragon has always faced with Citrix / VDI types of situations. But it does seem the best bet for bridging them without resorting to copy-and-paste, from what I have read on this forum (quoting mwarddoc et al). If I ever acquire a copy of desktop Dragon of any flavour, getting DragonCapture would be a no-brainer.

2. A salient point on "Digital Signing" really cannot be swept under. Methods of trialing are more or less matters of vendor preference. An installer is a nice-to-have. But signing an app/executable prior to commercial distribution really shouldn't be skirted around in this day and age. Really, any distributed software these days, paid or not, should be signed, IMO.
 07/11/2021 01:05 PM
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R. Wilke
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ax,

A decent installer, catering for first-time and update/upgrade installations, and guiding the end-user appropriately, as well as checking for the prerequisites to begin with, is pretty much the norm today. Would you be happy, as an example, trying to install DragonCapture on a system where Dragon isn't even around, only to find out that it won't run after the fact? Of course, the same is true for, KnowBrainer, as an example, although I am not really sure it is checked, not mentioning SP Pro, if it even comes with an installer of any kind.

All of this takes spending time, and money.



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 07/11/2021 04:34 PM
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dilligence
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Like Kevin said, specific tutorials/courses are the way to go and they will save you lots of time. Like most other comprehensive software solutions, the extremely powerful Dragon® program can have a bit of a learning curve. However, you can make that curve significantly lower by getting demonstrated only what you want to use it for. That's why customized tutorials are so important. Not everybody who is using Dragon® has a disability. A very large group of users solely uses it for dictation purposes (not to control their computer) like medical staff, authors, translators, lawyers etc.

 

This is probably the biggest group. And although forum member Tiger Feet may have all day to pick up bits and pieces of information scattered around the forum, I can assure you most people do not. They simply want to know how to use Dragon for their specific purposes.

 

Developing Dragon® add-ons. A work of love?

 

Definitely! Developing and coding applications is extremely time consuming, but that's really only the beginning. It's followed by endless debugging/testing, adapting, changing, testing again and again. Since the SP 6 PRO package is actually 30 programs in one, you'll see what we mean! There’s also the SP 6 Standard package which currently consists of 20 programs.

I stay in close contact with customers and we add features on a regular basis and adapt the modules whenever necessary.

 

Then there's the program’s artwork/design, the program documentation, the website, multiple demonstration videos, forum postings/announcements, and of course customer support which I take very seriously. Any customer who has ever contacted me knows how responsive and comprehensive that support is.

 

The Dragon® add-ons market is a niche market. No developer will expect to get rich from this. For me it's all about creativity and innovations. At the very same time I have a strong affinity with people with physical limitations when it comes to computer use. This is probably my strongest motivation.

However, it's also true that Tiger Feet nailed it when he said: "there is nothing wrong with making money for the work you have put into your software". 

 

Although heavily promoted, RW's one trick pony comes nowhere near the power and innovations of SP. He'd better worry about his DC utility messing up Dragon after you uninstall the demo, or the fact that he's using the registered Dragon® name as part of his product names in ways that suggest that they are either part of that product or affiliated with it. Not good... 

 

https://www.nuance.com/about-us/company-policies/legal-marks.html

 

If you are interested in a auto pasting solution that actually does work (without having to do tedious manual corrections afterwards) you may want to look into Auto Box© or Quiet Box©. It effectively combines auto transfers with full Select-and-Say control. I'm currently working on Auto Box© version 3 with another programmer. That version is going to be something else!



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 07/11/2021 05:10 PM
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ax
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Hey guys.  Let's not derail OP's well-intentioned thread and the useful discourse it generated.

For "SP vs DC", there is this old thread: https://www.knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=35218

No.  I am NOT recommending re-activating the above thread.  Leaving it as "apple vs orange" suffices for most.  But if one must, it is preferable to confine that discussion to one place.

As just a "volunteer" and "enthusiast", I probably have been guilty of flaming a little here and there myself.  Staying civil is always preferable.

At one point, RW might have come across a ittle more "Javert" and you "Valjean".  But Rob, editing function exists so we can go back and refine "diction", so as to be less inflammatory.   (Edit: nice to see it has been refined ...)

I for one don't see RW's posts above as personal attack or product besmirchment.  They were expressed matter-of-factly, though may not be completely germane to the topic at hand.

And I have no doubt that SP vanilla or Pro have many, many satisfied and grateful users - in fact a few have chimed in at various times. 

P.S., nevertheless, the point on digitally signing any distributed EXE not only stands, but ought to be writ large, IMHO.



 07/11/2021 05:33 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We would like to point out that Rüdiger Wilkie's use of the word Dragon does not violate Nuance's trademark for the following reasons:


1. We don't believe Nuance has registered the Dragon name in Germany (which probably isn't even possible) just like KnowBrainer® is only registered in the US

2. Nuance doesn't usually have a problem with any company that creates a product that is designed to make Dragon better

3. DragonCapture is partnered with KnowBrainer and as a Nuance certified partner, we (and associated companies) are licensed to use the Dragon name, which cannot be protected, and any associated icons as you will see on this website.

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 07/11/2021 08:36 PM
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dilligence
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1. Since Nuance® products are being used worldwide, chances are that they have registered their trademarks worldwide via the Madrid Protocol for the international registration of trademarks. Germany is in that protocol as well.

 

2. Nuance® probably won't have a problem with a company that creates products designed to make Dragon® better but it may have a problem with a developer that uses the very name "Dragon" in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services. I.e. DragonCapture, DragonEcho, DragonPhrases, DragonBench, DragonSources. The protected name is even used in the developer's website header: "DragonUtilities".

If that does not define infringement then I don't know what does.

 

3. I don't believe KnowBrainer being a Nuance® certified partner has anything to do with the above.



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 07/11/2021 10:23 PM
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ax
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It's probably all a matter of optics.

Apple probably would have sued Fuji or Golden Delicious as Cupertino is known to be dogged when it comes to such things.  And its pocket is nearly infinitely deep and its army of lawyers numbering into divisions.

But how is suing Granny Smith enhancing its "prestige" and thereby hiking stock price even further?  It doesn't.  So Apple doesn't sue apple growers.

Just last month the Judge in Georgia was wanting to escalate Nuance's own row with MModal to whatever "Circuit".  So it's not like Nuance lawyers have nothing to do on their hands.  Big companies avoid bad optics, especially if there is no money to be made.

To tell the truth, if I was RW, I would be ecstatic if Nuance threatens some "action".  Better yet it should get some press.  This kind of publicity is an advertising dream, the kind Kims schedule divorces to get.

Anyway, looping back to my borderline hyperbolic statement on "signing executables", it is likely impractical for all and sundry given the cost and administrative overhead.

https://www.theregister.com/2020/06/05/windows_10_microsoft_defender_smartscreen/

Even the 3 versions of AutoHotKey executables (ANSI 32, Unicode 32 and 64) are unsigned.  But "optics" are maintained by a) AHK being open-source, and b) its installer is digitally signed (at least used to be).

Again signing or not signing doesn't alter an iota of the substance of worthiness and effectiveness and security of SP.  However, it comes down to the matter of optics, yet again.

Perhaps the proprietors of SP could consider the option of digitally signing the installer so as to avoid the cumulative cost of signing 30 single EXEs, especially if this is to be a yearly recurring one. 

 

Anyway, my point is that for a closed-source commercial software package that is designated for professional use (again I am not implying any inherent pecking order above that for "home" use), better optics are to vendor's advantage.


Now I wish we can get back to OP (Kevin)'s discourse on intermediate level videos.



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