KnowBrainer Speech Recognition
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Topic Title: DragonCapture and KnowBrainer not the best of friends?
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Created On: 01/04/2021 10:39 PM
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 01/04/2021 10:39 PM
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jgold55
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Not sure exactly what is happening, but it seems when I am dictating into my EHR and then have to make a correction with both Knowbrainer and Dragon Capture open, then Dragon hangs in sleep mode and I am unable to wake it up either manually or by voice command. It requires a restart via speech start plus. Sometimes that doesn't even work and I need to either go through the task manager or use my Dragon killer .bat file

it seems also that sometimes when I open knowbrainer first it takes much longer to load Dragon after that than if loading Dragon by itself.

It really bothers me since Dragon capture really helps me use my EHR and I have several knowbrainer commands that I also use to navigate the E HR.

Can't we just all be friends?



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701



 01/05/2021 04:53 AM
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R. Wilke
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This is very unfortunate. Both KnowBrainer and DragonCapture are developed independently, but in theory, they should play along with each other nicely. We would love to help you, and the best way to do this would be looking over your shoulder. Other than this, we would need a whole lot more information. Are you using a KnowBrainer command to make the correction? If so, which one?

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 01/05/2021 10:37 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We suspect Dragon is the culprit but since you are also using SpeechStart+, you have a better workaround. Try turning the microphone completely off by saying Microphone Off. You can say Microphone On to turn the Dragon microphone back on. Placing Dragon in the Asleep state is always a little risky because it's listing for a wake-up command.



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 01/06/2021 03:54 PM
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jgold55
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The problem occurred when I said "correct that".  

I had been merrilly dictating along with DragonCapture in Autopaste/allow autopaste when hidden.  Has happened both with and without type mode activated.

Could be my EHR's way of rejecting a non-DMPE  version of Dragon.  Basically mike goes into sleep mode and is totally unresponsive.  Only way to restart is to use Speech Start plus or task manager. 

Also happened when dictating an email using Gmail.

Dragon Capture works much better when Knowbrainer is not activated. 

Haven't really tried to see what happens with Knowbrainer active and not DragonCapture since I need DragonCapture to dictate into the EHR.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/06/2021 04:19 PM
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R. Wilke
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As tempting and convenient as it may seem, but DragonCapture does not add Select-and-Say to the non-supported application. To that end, using "Correct that" from within the non-supported application will be hit or miss, at best, but the results are plain unpredictable, and worst case might be Dragon losing the plot.

I will ask Lunis to chime in as to how to edit or correct the non-supported application via KnowBrainer commands, as a workaround for the time being.

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 01/06/2021 04:46 PM
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jgold55
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Mr. Wilke, thanks for the reply.

I may just use the DragonCapture box and transfer from there since I am able to use my familiar macros and dictation instead of having to dictate everything directly when in the EHR.

Both dictating into the DC box and directly into the EHR have their own advantages.  I like when the DC box is hidden to free up screen space.  But I like voice macros too. 

Still, DragonCapture really helped improve the use of the EHR so I appreciate your developmental efforts.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/11/2021 07:50 AM
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Mav
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Originally posted by: jgold55 The problem occurred when I said "correct that". 

Could be my EHR's way of rejecting a non-DMPE  version of Dragon.

 

What do you mean by this? If you start your DPI standalone and try dictating into your EHR, do you get a message telling you to use a healthcare edition of Dragon?

 

Regards,

mav

 01/11/2021 11:18 AM
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jgold55
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Yes.  Dragon simply is closed down saying it is a non supported, i.e., requires DMPE.

Sometimes I can dictate into the EHR with DPI alone but sooner or later the Dragon wakes up and shuts itself down.

Sometimes still happens even with DragonCapture as a buffer. Usually happens after executing a correction or selection command.

 



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701



 01/11/2021 11:33 AM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: jgold55 Yes.  Dragon simply is closed down saying it is a non supported, i.e., requires DMPE.

 

Sometimes I can dictate into the EHR with DPI alone but sooner or later the Dragon wakes up and shuts itself down.

 

Sometimes still happens even with DragonCapture as a buffer. Usually happens after executing a correction or selection command.

 

 

 

 

Don't. As I am in the process of creating a new tutorial video right now, I will quote myself for the time being:

 

"DragonCapture is all about dictation, and it won't handle commands, except for the ones which are built into it. It also doesn't add Select-and-Say to the target, although it may seem so."

Technically, when going to your EMR through DragonCapture, Dragon is hidden behind it and won't recognise that it is communicating with it; because it doesn't, as the communication is solely between Dragon and DragonCapture, with DragonCapture being the middleman linking to the target.

 

When using correction or selecting commands however, you are going straight through Dragon and that's where and why Dragon loses it, as I have just realised, and thus the answer to your initial question actually.



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 01/11/2021 04:07 PM
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jgold55
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Thanks for the reply.

So as I am discovering, it's really much better in this case to utilize the DragonCapture box and then transfer to the target.  Then, I can use macros and other commands.  The only inconvenience is having to switch back and forth from target to DC box.  Not so terrible.

And for straight dictation I can still (usually) dictate directly into the target.

Works for me.

Thanks for the very functional utility.

Still experience frequent crashes and freezes when both DC and KB are open together.

It's easier to make commands in KB.  Is it workable to make commands in KB and then transfer them into Dragon Commands so I could still get the best of both applications?



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701



 01/11/2021 06:09 PM
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R. Wilke
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I am sorry, but I am not really sure what you mean. Please just wait a few more days until I have finished the upcoming video, hopefully.



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 01/12/2021 11:04 AM
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Edgar
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Originally posted by: jgold55 It's easier to make commands in KB.  Is it workable to make commands in KB and then transfer them into Dragon Commands so I could still get the best of both applications?

I think that you are asking if you may use the KnowBrainer commands editor to write (and possibly even test) your commands then use the resulting macro/script code in a Dragon® command. The answer is probably somewhere between usually and often. Before DPI 15.6 Dragon® used a Basic engine/language which was significantly different from the one used by KnowBrainer; still, many simple macros would work in both languages. With DPI 15.6 Dragon® updated their Basic engine and virtually all of your KnowBrainer commands should transfer over directly (I'm not sure but there might be a couple of KnowBrainer-specific commands which do not transfer over).

Don't forget, KnowBrainer takes precedence over Dragon® so, if you have two identically named commands the KnowBrainer one is executed (obviously, assuming KnowBrainer is running; command scope also plays a part here).



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-Edgar
DPI 15.3, 64-bit Windows 10 Pro, OpenOffice & Office 365, Norton Security, Shure X2U XLR to USB mic adapter with Audio Technica DB135 vocal mic, Asus X299-Deluxe Prime, Intel Core i9-7940X (14 core, 4.3 GHz overclocked to 4.9 GHz), G.SKILL TridentZ Series 64GB (4 x 16GB) DDR4 3333 (PC4 26600) F4-3333C16Q-64GTZ, NVIDIA GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 1060 GV-N1060G1 GAMING-6GD REV 2.0 6GB graphics card with 3 1920x1080 monitors

 01/12/2021 06:11 PM
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jgold55
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Yes, Edgar, that is exactly what I meant.

It adds another step to the process but in the long run everything might run more smoothly.

Thanks for your highly regarded input.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/19/2021 03:28 PM
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jgold55
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Tried a little experiment.  Used Dragon with only Knowbrainer active.  Shut down Dragon Capture.

Used only DragonPad or NotePad.  Still with Knowbrainer at some point 5-10 minutes into dictation and executing some command, maybe a correction or deletion or selection I don't remember, Dragon froze with microphone in sleep mode.  Sometimes Dragon would close down itself and require restart.

So, not sure what is going on with Knowbrainer.  I have installed the newest version with no change in the above mentioned behavior.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/20/2021 10:55 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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We cannot verify your findings on any of our computers. Have you upgraded to Ver. 4.51? You can tell what version of KnowBrainer you are using by right clicking on the hidden KnowBrainer icon and choosing About.



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 01/20/2021 11:14 AM
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jgold55
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Yes, I have upgraded Knowbrainer to v4.51.

 

I have a computer filter to filter out unwanted images etc.  I'm going to contact the vendor of that filter which I think is also a VPN to turn it off for the time being and to see if that is not interfering somehow with DPI and Knowbrainer.

 

I had the same VPN on my phone and I was unable to connect the phone with Bluetooth to my Sennheiser MB Pro one or to my car sound system until I turned off the VPN.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/26/2021 11:53 PM
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jgold55
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Here is a further update on some problems I'm having with Knowbrainer.

1.  There is significant latency, frequent freezes and crashes.  For example, when dictating into the native DragonPad, whether Dragon capture is activated or I closed it, if I do a select command, right after that the microphone goes into sleep mode and cannot be awakened even with speech start plus or pounding on it manually.  Dragon crashes and requires a restart either manually or with speech start plus.  In fact, this very message I started knowbrainer crashed right after the first sentence.  I am now dictating sans Knowbrainer. Dragon capture is active and open.

2.  Sometimes when trying to initiate DPI through opening Knowbrainer, Knowbrainer hangs and I have to start over again through speech start plus.

3.  I was wondering if perhaps using a Bluetooth microphone was causing the latency problems, but there is no difference between this Sennheiser microphone and the wired microphone.

4.  I have updated to the latest version of Knowbrainer – 4.51.  According to the Knowbrainer command updater I am running the latest version of the commands.

5.  Is it possible, and I am by no means knowledgeable about computers or software, that since DPI has now been updated to the Sax scripting engine, the same as Knowbrainer, that they are now competing with each other?

6.  How is it possible to determine if I'm having a software problem or a hardware problem?

7.  I uninstalled my computer filter thinking that perhaps I was having some effect upon DPI or Knowbrainer.  There is apparently no difference.

In this present circumstance, Knowbrainer is basically unusable.  That is too bad.  I have really enjoyed using it and it really simplified making commands.  Hopefully these problems can be easily resolved.



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HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 01/27/2021 11:51 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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The old Dragon engine is SAX Basic and the new one, which is additionally used in KnowBrainer, is WinWrap Basic.

 

As far as the other problems are concerned, we don't believe they are directly related to Dragon, DragonCapture or KnowBrainer. We are by no means computer experts but it sounds like a hardware problem or a Windows corruption issue. It might be time to have your computer looked at



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 02/02/2021 11:06 PM
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jgold55
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I was thinking that perhaps my Windows 10 installation might have corrupted files based on doing some online research.

So I ran a command prompt: sfc /scannow which repaired some corrupted files.

Now at least I am able to reactivate Knowbrainer with a wake up call after it goes to sleep. However, it still exhibits some strange behavior. For example, I can use the regular Dragon command: "new paragraph"to begin a new paragraph. However, if I use the Knowbrainer command: "paragraph", immediately after executing the command, the microphone goes to sleep. It happens with some other commands also but not all of them.  For example it happens with the command: "list (number)".  This is occurring in DragonPad but it doesn't really matter what I am dictating into.

It happens whether or not Dragon Capture is active or not.

I am using the latest Knowbrainer command file – 01-06-2021 and version – 4.51.

My Dragon user profile is approximately one month old.

Should I perform a repair or reinstall of Knowbrainer?

 



-------------------------

HP Pavillion dv7;Windows 10 Home; i7 2670-QM @2.2 GHz; 16GB RAM; DPI 15.61; Knowbrainer 2017; Dragon Capture; SpeechStart +; Sennheiser MB Pro 1 UC/ML;  Addasound SR2701

 02/03/2021 02:16 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Our best guess is that Dragon's default auto-gain setting is running too high and hearing more than what you say. This problem is somewhat worse in the Ver. 15 speech engine. The next time this problem occurs, try saying What Did I Say to see what Dragon thinks you said. If need be, you might consider disabling Dragon's auto-gain feature. You'll find step-by-step details in the Quick Tips, at the top of this page, when you look up “auto-gain”.



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KnowBrainer Speech Recognition » KnowBrainer Software and Support » DragonCapture and KnowBrainer not the best of friends?

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