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Topic Title: Recomended Anti-Virus Software
Topic Summary: Comprehensive cover with minimum DNS latency
Created On: 01/21/2013 05:59 PM
Status: Post and Reply
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 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - silfan - 01/21/2013 05:59 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Chucker - 01/21/2013 06:07 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Handyman - 06/24/2014 01:25 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - danw700 - 06/24/2014 03:15 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Lunis Orcutt - 06/24/2014 04:19 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - silfan - 01/21/2013 06:26 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Tiger Feet - 01/23/2013 10:11 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Spoudason - 04/14/2014 09:22 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Jomark - 01/23/2013 10:25 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Chucker - 01/23/2013 11:04 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - hansgutbrod - 02/16/2014 07:44 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Spoudason - 02/17/2014 04:10 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - FootDoc - 02/18/2014 05:40 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Lunis Orcutt - 02/18/2014 08:10 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - KateM - 03/24/2014 12:47 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Tiger Feet - 03/24/2014 01:43 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Chucker - 03/24/2014 03:00 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - KateM - 06/11/2014 04:55 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Roger - 04/01/2014 11:41 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - TCXO - 04/02/2014 07:14 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Roger - 04/05/2014 02:56 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - brainybanana - 04/14/2014 05:34 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Donald Clements - 07/05/2014 01:47 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Chucker - 07/05/2014 09:33 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Donald Clements - 07/06/2014 07:38 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - hmyer - 07/07/2014 12:59 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Donald Clements - 07/07/2014 02:04 PM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - hmyer - 07/08/2014 06:34 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - Chucker - 07/08/2014 09:43 AM  
 Recomended Anti-Virus Software   - hmyer - 07/10/2014 07:18 AM  
Keyword
 01/21/2013 06:07 PM
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Chucker
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silfan,

There is a basically free version of Avast but the Pro and the Internet security are not free. Why not stick with a tried-and-true and reliable freebie from Microsoft, Microsoft Security Essentials. Microsoft Security Essentials is designed for Windows 7 and below, and is incorporated into Windows 8 (Windows Defender). It's free, it's reliable, it does not interfere with DNS and it is regularly updated via Windows update. It has gotten good reviews from PC World and PC Magazine, and it doesn't give you false positives, while at the same time giving you complete control over virus, spam, and malware. I've been using it since it was first released and have never had any problems with it.

Avast is OK, but I don't particularly care for it.

Chuck

"Good enough never is." - Debbi Fields: founder of Mrs. Fields Bakeries

-------------------------

VoiceComputer: the only global speech interface.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect those of VoiceTeach LLC.

Chuck Runquist
VoiceComputer technical support

 06/24/2014 01:25 AM
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Handyman
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Chuck, If I switch to Microsoft's security essentials, do I need to uninstall the McAfee antivirus program that I'm using first? I use AVG on my desktop computer and McAfee on my laptop, however after I read your post and it made me want to switch both of my computer because you seem to know your stuff. Do you recommend I do this?

I'm ashamed to admit that I've been in a wheelchair for 13 years now and I really know nothing about computers because I'm afraid to mess with mine for the fear of breaking it.

Also, thank you for answering my question about Yahoo news the other day. I'm still unable to read any articles.

Do you have to click on your user when you're starting Dragon? Every time we open my laptop I have to have somebody click on Dragon NaturallySpeaking and then click on my username to get things going.



-------------------------

Tom Davis

 06/24/2014 03:15 AM
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danw700
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Tom
I am sure that Chuck will explain to you that you should never have two antivirus programs running on the same computer. I will leave it to him to explain how to prepare your machines for Security Essentials from Microsoft.

It is quite hard to simply break the hardware of a computer but it is true that you can mess up the software and the way that it all runs together. That is why you always hear about the need to take backups of everything. You will find plenty advice about backups and particularly DNS backups on this forum.

In my opinion the best program to use to have information read back to you from the screen including browsers is a program called TextAloud. It uses the same speech as DNS read back but it is smoother and faster and will run inside a browser frame. The current thinking is the switch to Microsoft Internet Explorer version 11 because it is quicker than chrome or Firefox and Dragon works well in that and so does TextAloud. I can control TextAloud very simply with Dragon by voice.

You will see on this site a link to speech start + – this program will let you start & restart Dragon by voice alone. Both KnowBrainer and speech start a very kind to disable people – I am partially disabled. Lindsay wrote the program called SpeechStart – he needed something to get his system and Dragon started without having extra help. I tell you it works wonderfully.

Here are a couple of links you could look at
http://www.nextup.com/TextAloud/
http://www.pcbyvoice.com/support/speechstart-support/

Hope this helps in some way – I am a rank Emma to this myself :-)
Cheers
Dan



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The forum has me as a Top-Tier Member NO I am a laid-back layman

 06/24/2014 04:19 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Per Dan's recommendation, you should not run more than one antivirus utility and we recommend uninstalling McAfee (because it's the path of least resistance) and replacing it with Microsoft Security Essentials (which is free) on both of your computers.

When you open Dragon, it should open your user profile automatically, unless you have more than one profile. However, since you are disabled, if you're using our free KnowBrainer 2012 command utility, all you have to do is launch KnowBrainer to automatically launch both KnowBrainer, NaturallySpeaking and open your last known used Dragon profile. Our preference is to keep a shortcut to KnowBrainer in the startup folder so that you never have to launch Dragon or KnowBrainer.

You mentioned something about not being able to read the news on Yahoo. Did you want to have the news read back to you with the Dragon text-to-speech engine? If so, even though Dragon can't read the text, KnowBrainer can force Dragon to read the text. Since KnowBrainer 2012 is freely available to you, you may as well take advantage of the amenities  



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 01/21/2013 06:26 PM
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silfan
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Thanks Chucker, I very much respect your expert recomendations.
I am weary of relying on Microsoft Security Essentials, as from the reviews I have read it does not provide a particularly comprehensive protection - although obviously very good considering it is free. Great that you have never had problems with it.
Silfan

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Equipment and specs


 


SR PROGRAM: DNS  12.5 premium + KB 2012  - UK English / SOUNDCARD & MIC: speech ware three in one / OS: Windows 7  home 64-bit  / PROCESSOR: i7 3720 QM, 2.6 GHz / RAM: 16GB

 01/23/2013 10:11 AM
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Tiger Feet
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Originally posted by: silfan Thanks Chucker, I very much respect your expert recomendations. I am weary of relying on Microsoft Security Essentials, as from the reviews I have read it does not provide a particularly comprehensive protection - although obviously very good considering it is free. Great that you have never had problems with it. Silfan


Silfan,


I use Microsoft Security Essentials as well and have also never had a major problem.  I say never had a major problem, it has missed some malware in the past.  It is for this reason that alongside it I use, "malwarebytes" anti-malware (also free), 'Spybot search and destroy'(also free) & 'Spywareblaster' (also free and runs in the background).


Using the free versions you just need to make sure you run them around once a week (and Malwarebytes every day).


With this combination I have always found that what one misses, one of the others will find.  I have used this combination from the very existence of MSE and have never had a problem since.


Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPI 15.3 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows  10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Sennheiser D10-USB Wireless. |



 04/14/2014 09:22 AM
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Spoudason
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I realize that this subject is a matter of experience and usage, but I have used avast! Internet Security for many years with no difficulty regarding Dragon NaturallySpeaking. The free version has the same basic features as the paid version. I am now using Avast! Premier. It works extremely well with Dragon. That is merely my testimony. Usage may vary.

 01/23/2013 10:25 AM
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Jomark
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Silfan,


I use Microsoft Security Essentials as well and have also never had a major problem.
I use, 'Spybot search and destroy'(also free) as well without any problem.



-------------------------

Jomark


 


DPI 15.6?, KB2017, SpeechStart+, MS Office 2019 Professional, Windows 10 Pro

 01/23/2013 11:04 AM
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Chucker
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Tiger & Jomark,

I really like Spybot Search and Destroy. The only problem that I have with it, and reason I don't use it, is because it is a resource hog and slow as molasses in January.

On the other hand, the only reason that Microsoft Security Essentials misses some things is because you periodically have to run a full scan as opposed to a quick scan or real-time scanning. If you periodically run a full scan, it pretty much catches everything. In my experience it uses less resources and is less intrusive and resource hungry than Spybot. Besides, too many additional utilities as far as antivirus, anti-malware, and anti-spyware is self-defeating. You might have better protection, but under some conditions, it makes your system run like you're running in water.

Chuck

"If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside." -- Robert X. Cringely



-------------------------

VoiceComputer: the only global speech interface.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect those of VoiceTeach LLC.

Chuck Runquist
VoiceComputer technical support



 02/16/2014 07:44 PM
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hansgutbrod
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old thread, but just wanted to share my experience that AVAST is not compatible with DNS. I had problems with DNS for years (slow, lag, etc) and thought the problem was with DNS, but then it turned out to be AVAST. It got a bit better when adding an exception, but still did not run well.

DNS got massively better when I deleted AVAST from my computer. The improvement was instant, so I am sure that this was connected. I thought I'd put this out there, in case anyone else runs into the problem.

Hans

-------------------------

-------------------------------------


Dragon 13, Windows 7 (64 Bit)


Intel Core i7 - 4600 CPU @ 2.10 GHz 2.70 GHz, 8 GB RAM


Sennheiser CC510

 02/17/2014 04:10 AM
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Spoudason
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Greetings. I do not wish to get into a battle over which antivirus software is best to use with Dragon. Like the previous post, I only want to express my experience. I have used avast! for about five years now. I am now using avast! Premier and found it to be completely compatible with Dragon NaturallySpeaking 12.5 and Windows Pro 8.1. I have never had any difficulty at all with any version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking and avast! I realize that each person may have difficulties that other people do not have, but that has been my experience. The biggest problems that I have had are the Microsoft Patch Tuesday security updates. They tend to mess with my sound system. I would recommend that if you are having problems with your antivirus software that you contact the people who provide the software. There may be a workaround available for you.
 02/18/2014 05:40 PM
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FootDoc
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I use ESET with Dragon from versions 9-12.5 medical and professional and it has been just fine. I am up for renewal so maybe will check out MS product. Reviews are god but just not having much love for MS these days.

Larry
 02/18/2014 08:10 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Speaking of M-Tech recommendations:

M-Tech has recently removed Avast from their suggestion list in their support page. Apparently Avast can cause some major problems for their computers. M-Tech is additionally recommend against the use of Norton, AVG or Kaperski. M-Tech hasn't tested every antivirus utility but they are currently only recommending Microsoft Security Essentials and additionally recommending obtaining a good malware utility like Malwarebytes  



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 03/24/2014 12:47 PM
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KateM
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According to this: http://www.speakeasysolutions.com/blog/2011/04/26/antivirus-software-its-impact-on-a-computers-performance/  

Speakeasy Solutions Inc. has spent considerable time researching the leading antivirus applications available and has found ESET's NOD 32 (Smart Security) to be the most effective, the most configurable, and with the smallest affecting footprint on a computer system. It provides protection in email, while web surfing and of course general computer operation.

Does anyone have any advice re: what I need to get changed to work around Enterprise installation of McAffee?

Thanks



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~ Kate



 03/24/2014 01:43 PM
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Tiger Feet
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Does anyone have any advice re: what I need to get changed to work around Enterprise installation of McAffee?


Kate,


Could you just expand on exactly what you wish to do?  Are you saying that you have McAfee and that you want to know how to take it off your computer?


Cheers



-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DPI 15.3 | KnowBrainer 2017 | Windows  10 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Sennheiser D10-USB Wireless. |

 03/24/2014 03:00 PM
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Chucker
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Kate,

The McAfee Enterprise Internet Security software requires that you go in and exclude everything and anything related to Dragon. Otherwise, that AV software will flag it and not allow you access to Dragon. If you're running it on a network and it was installed by your network IT people, you should contact them and let them configure it appropriately. This is one of the major problems with this software.

Chuck

Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't. - Pete Seeger

-------------------------

VoiceComputer: the only global speech interface.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect those of VoiceTeach LLC.

Chuck Runquist
VoiceComputer technical support

 06/11/2014 04:55 PM
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KateM
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Pasting this related info from response in another post to help complete the thread re: McAffee Exceptions I should ask IT security to create:

Originally posted by: Chucker ....McAfee has always been both the bane and the bastard of Internet security software. I've had to fight the battle with corporations that require McAfee. However, if you can come to a reasonable understanding with your corporate IT folks, you should ask them to make exceptions for the following: C:\Program Files (x86)\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking12 (and all subfolders) C:\ProgramData\Nuance\NaturallySpeaking12 (and all subfolders - this is the most critical) processes: natspeak.exe DgnSvc.exe DGN UI Automation Server (dgnserver.exe) - only for Windows 7 64-bit (handles 32-bit standard applications under Windows 7 64-bit) DGN UI Automation Server (dgnserver_x64.exe) - only for Windows 7 64-bit (handles 64-bit applications under Windows 7 64-bit and supports Dragon NaturallySpeaking under Windows 64 bit) Everyone thought that the acquisition of McAfee by Intel would improve things, particularly because Intel is thoroughly familiar with Dragon NaturallySpeaking and has been since 1998. However, it seems that Intel has only made things worse. Chuck



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~ Kate

 04/01/2014 11:41 PM
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Roger
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A computer company I am going to buy my computer from recommends these 2 for heavy Internet users:
http://www.webroot.com

http://www.eset.com/us/home/products/smart-security/

they say it doesn't use much resources. Anyone know anything about these 2?



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I plan on using this computer: Intel Core i7 4771 Haswell 3.5GHz Quad 8 MB cache with HT, LGA1150: Z87 3x 16X PCIe, 2 PCIe 1x, 2 PCI, USB3, Sata 600, 16 GB DDR3 1600 LV CL11-11-11-28, OS Drive: SSD Samsung 256GB 840 Pro, Data Drive: 2TB 7200rpm Sata 600 64 MB Cache WD2002FAEX, Win 7 Pro 64-bit, Andrea USB Soundpod, Sennheiser ME 3, DNS Pro 13 using BestMatch V?



 04/02/2014 07:14 AM
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TCXO
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Hi Roger,

My $0.02
I like ESET NOD32 and MalwareBytes. My office IT person recommended these.
There is a free version of MalwareBytes. (I go with the pay version so I get updates automatically).
Enjoy your awesome new computer,

David



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DMPE 4.3 (v15.5) | Lenovo ThinkPad P52 [Xeon E-2176M, 16GB DDR4] | Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon 6th [i7-8650U, 16GB LPDDR3] | Philips SMP4000 w/ ACC4100


"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." - Mahatma Gandhi



 04/05/2014 02:56 PM
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Roger
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Hi David,

Thanks for your $.02! Although, I think your sense is worth more than $.02 :-)

 

 



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I plan on using this computer: Intel Core i7 4771 Haswell 3.5GHz Quad 8 MB cache with HT, LGA1150: Z87 3x 16X PCIe, 2 PCIe 1x, 2 PCI, USB3, Sata 600, 16 GB DDR3 1600 LV CL11-11-11-28, OS Drive: SSD Samsung 256GB 840 Pro, Data Drive: 2TB 7200rpm Sata 600 64 MB Cache WD2002FAEX, Win 7 Pro 64-bit, Andrea USB Soundpod, Sennheiser ME 3, DNS Pro 13 using BestMatch V?

 04/14/2014 05:34 AM
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brainybanana
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In the past I have used Kaspersky Internet Security, which worked really well, but from the perspective of Dragon, it has, indeed continues to cause NaturallySpeaking to crash after three minutes of dictation. I have also used Microsoft Security Essentials, without a problem. Now, I am forced to used Avast Internet Security, which I'm pleased to report for me at least, thus far, has created no problem with the performance of NaturallySpeaking. There is no latency; nor does NaturallySpeaking inexplicably lock-up, which for me is extremely important.
 



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Dragon Professional Individual v15, Windows 7, Intel Core i7 3630QM, 16GB of RAM. At home: SpeechWare 6-in-1. Travelling: FlexyMike SEC with Buddy 7 Soundcard.

 07/05/2014 01:47 AM
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Donald Clements
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I personally use WebRoot and I find it to be the best I have ever used. I have used several over the years, but WebRoot will be the only one I return to. As far as it resource requirements, they are exceptionally light; because it is a cloud based antivirus the heavy lifting is done offsite, and your computer has minimal impact on its resources.

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“I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent; curiosity, obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas.”  Albert Einstein

 07/05/2014 09:33 AM
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Chucker
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Donald,

While I appreciate your love affair with WebRoot, why spend that kind of money for an antivirus or Internet security application which doesn't afford you that much better protection than Microsoft Security Essentials, which is free, uses minimum resources, is developed and designed by the manufacturer of the operating system itself, and is well-maintained. In all the years that I've used Microsoft Security Essentials on all of my systems, I have never had a problem with any malware, spyware, spamware, viruses, Trojans, yada yada yada. It's also built-in to Windows 8.1.

Just keep in mind that having what you think is the best doesn't necessarily provide 100% protection. That goes for all Internet security or antivirus software. Nothing is perfect.

Just my $.02 worth.

Chuck

"A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others." - Ayn Rand

-------------------------

VoiceComputer: the only global speech interface.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect those of VoiceTeach LLC.

Chuck Runquist
VoiceComputer technical support

 07/06/2014 07:38 AM
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Donald Clements
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Webroot is by no means the most comprehensive system, nor is it even the most secure. However, with proper adjustments to the heuristics it does a more than adequate job of both real-time detection and removal. I personally like it for the password vault that integrates with chrome rather seamlessly, and the low resources it requires because it is a cloud-based solution.  Additionally, I liked the integrated multi platform capabilities offered at a reasonably low price point. At the time of purchase I was capable of protecting up to three devices across any platform of my choosing for three years.

 

In any case, it is far more functional and protective than the minimal baseline that is Microsoft Security Essentials (MSE). MSE is consistently ranked among the lowest of all antivirus and security solutions. It is frequently referred to as the minimum standard to which all other products are measured against, and it does not try to compete with antivirus software. Instead it serves to augment and facilitate them by providing that baseline and transparency.

There are many independent research firms out there that publish their own benchmarks. Below are a few resources one can check out at their leisure.

http://www.av-test.org/en/home/?avtest[type]=3

http://news.thewindowsclub.com/microsoft-security-essentials-baseline-protection-65794/

http://www.av-comparatives.org/



-------------------------

“I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent; curiosity, obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas.”  Albert Einstein



 07/07/2014 12:59 PM
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hmyer
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"because it is a cloud based antivirus the heavy lifting is done offsite, "
"and the low resources it requires because it is a cloud-based solution. "

I take being "cloud based" as a negative. The internet is not "secure", just because
financial institutions are willing to take a loss on any breaches as long as they make more than enough money
to cover it does not make it secure.

I have just started trying out MSE and seems pretty good and it appears to be the best "free" solution.

I have seen a few incidences where people got the message "must have the full version to remove this threat".

Also remember, antivirus programs are a reactive solution.

That is, they are not likely to protect you against a new virus until some poor sap gets nailed by it AND REPORTS IT,
so the antivirus programs can be updated to handle it.



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 07/07/2014 02:04 PM
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Donald Clements
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>>>hmyer: “I take being ‘cloud based’ as a negative. The internet is not ‘secure’"<<<

Secure is a relative term and security is of constant concern, especially to businesses. Information technologies, like cloud computing, are what I am currently going to college for and security is going to be a major aspect of my future profession. I plan on adding a computer science degree to my repertoire in addition to the information technologies degree, and something they drill into you very early is that basic is not “good enough” when it comes to government or business applications. I already know how insecure the Internet is, and how to theoretically intercept someone’s information that is unencrypted as it passes through the network, or even how to access someone’s Wi-Fi using exploits.

 

Heuristics, by the way, are algorithms that have been designed to catch viruses that have not been caught yet, or that have not even been developed yet. Heuristics are what is responsible for the false positives one talks about when comparing various antiviruses. I’m not going for perfection; I’m going for better than basic, and for $17 a year for that trade-off Microsoft Securities Essentials is not worth it to me personally. Just because it is cheap does not mean it needs to be pushed forward as the most advantageous, people need to be aware that there are alternatives out there and that they themselves need to consider their own cost to performance ratio. By maintaining a stance that all other antiviruses are dumb because you have to pay for them, one is remaining in the dark of the realities associated with that field by choice.

 

For the basic user of the Internet who just browses known websites that are relatively safe, Microsoft Securities Essentials is a decent solution for protection. However, I will adamantly maintain that the more sensitive the information one passes through one’s computer, the more protection is needed. This is equally true for how integrated one is with the online world in general. My bank is a virtual bank, and it exists 99% in cyberspace. Most of my purchases are through online stores like KnowBrainer, Amazon, and The Great Courses.  I have a lot of sensitive data that requires an elevated level of protection, and I do not believe that fully understanding one’s options is a bad thing.



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“I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent; curiosity, obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my ideas.”  Albert Einstein

 07/08/2014 06:34 AM
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hmyer
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Just because you paid for it or paid more for it doesn't make it better.

Heuristics, by the way, are also based on old viruses and are updated when a "really" new virus comes along.

If you want to call a virus new because a few bits are different, then whatever.

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 07/08/2014 09:43 AM
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Chucker
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Hey folks,

This is becoming a he said, she said argument. While I appreciate the concern over what is best and most functional, starting World War III is not the way to resolve anything. Everybody has their own personal preferences as far as antivirus/anti-malware/antispam software. Donald make some good points. However, so does Harry.

If you want to make an argument for what is the best software out there free or otherwise, I consider it to be VIPRE Internet Security 2014.

http://vipreantivirus.com/promos/vipre/top-grade-antivirus.html?gclid=COHzu_nqtb8CFabm7Aodi1oAQg  

It all depends on how much protection you need and/or want. For most users, Microsoft Security Essentials is just fine (free or otherwise).

Chuck

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." -- Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)



-------------------------

VoiceComputer: the only global speech interface.

The views, thoughts and opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect those of VoiceTeach LLC.

Chuck Runquist
VoiceComputer technical support



 07/10/2014 07:18 AM
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hmyer
Advanced Member

Posts: 164
Joined: 09/09/2008

Actually, I thought this thread
http://www.knowbrainer.com/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=18802&STARTPAGE=2&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear
was closer to WW III



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