Lunis, thank you for your excellent DNS version 11 review.

I have a Lenovo T61 (7661D71) (Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7100 @ 1.80GHz) with 2GB ram and in light of comments I am concerned that the benefits of DNS 11 will not come throgh on this somewhat antiquated machine.  I use a theBoom O microphone.

If I upgraded to a Lenovo T410 - CPU = 2,4GHz, RAM = 2 x 2GB, Disk = 160GB (5400rpm), would I see the benefits of DNS 11?

 

 

You should be able to appreciate most of the benefits of Ver. 11 including all of the new features, 22.5 kHz sampling rate and dual threading. However, you will more than likely need to lower the accuracy slider to faster response in order to use this computer. Although your Lenovo T61 is usable, we believe it's time to update to a faster model.

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Click KB 2012 REV D to Download a 30 Day Evaluation of KnowBrainer 2012
Click SpeechStart+ to Download a 15 Day Evaluation of SpeechStart+

Lunis, many thanks. I have ordered the upgrade to v11 and of course the new version of KnowBrainer.

I greatly appreciate everyone's responses regarding T61 w Windows XP.  I installed DNS 11 and created both a Best Match iii and Best Match IV profile.  Perhaps because I only have 9% of of 75G hard disk space available (after 'house cleaning', results have been unsatisfactory.  Sometimes recognition and response times are excellent, but most of the time response slows to a glacial speed of 45+ seconds or even minutes for an uterance of several words (recognition is still good). 

I did not have this problem with DNS 10.1 and still have my user files, so I decided to uninstalled v11 and re-install v10, but the install failed as my v10 disk is an upgrade and my earlier versions (for which I still have disks) are upgrades as well.  All were purchased through KnowBrainer.  How can I re-install v10.1, without having to start with Adam and Eve?  Many thanks

I am in the bureaucratic corporate process of ordering a new Lenovo (probably nothing better that t410 with an i5-560 processor) which will take another 3-4 weeks to receive.

Michael,

The kind of performance you described simply cannot be caused by the speed of your laptop computer itself.  I used to have DNS 10 on a Lenovo T61 which had 3GB RAM and a T7600 at 2.2 GHz (I think).  Sure it had better specs than yours, but belonged to the same class.  The recognition was essentially instantaneous. Although I now use a slightly faster laptop and DNS 11,  I would imagine if I had installed DNS 11 on the previous Lenovo T61, it should have comparable performance, assuming everything runs properly.

So I'm pretty sure that in your case the the problem is rooted in DNS 11, which, as has been extensively discussed on this form,  does not play well with certain hardware and software environment. Many, including myself, believe DNS 11 was released prematurely, but that is a different story.

We agree with techlaw but if you feel that you must roll back to Ver. 10.1, see following:

1. Uninstall Ver. 11.
2. Insert the Ver. 10 upgrade disk.
3. Insert the 1st disk of an earlier version of DNS when prompted (Ver. 8 or Ver. 9). It doesn't matter whether it's a full copy or upgrade because you're not actually installing the software. You're just letting the Ver. 10 installer verify the disk.
4. Reinsert the Ver. 10 upgrade disk which will now install a full copy of DNS.

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Click KB 2012 REV D to Download a 30 Day Evaluation of KnowBrainer 2012
Click SpeechStart+ to Download a 15 Day Evaluation of SpeechStart+

I followed your instructions this morning and that worked perfectly. I have been happily dictating without any of the problems that I had experienced with v11. I suspect that the problems are not the fault of those v11, but are due to lack of hard drive space (7% available) and other problems that seem to cause it to crash at least once or twice a week. Many thanks

 

Your current laptop only has 2 MB of level 3 cache. The laptop you are considering has 3. The sweet spot for DNS 10.1 is 6 MB of cache while 8 is desirable and adds some benefit. I would assume DNS 11 is similar. I don’t know if having the 8 MB of level 3 cache would make more or less deference when going to DNS 11. In any case, anything less than six will cause some degradation in performance. For $80 more than the Lenovo T410 laptop  you’re considering you can get an HP Pavilion laptop with 6 MB of level 3 cache.

Lenovo T61 (7661D71) (Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7100 @ 1.80GHz) with 2GB ram
The T7100 CPU only as 2 MB of level II RAM. Six or 8 MB of level II or level III RAM is best for DNS.

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=29759


The Lenovo T410 laptop as the Intel Core i5-540M (2.53GHz, 3MB Cache) processor.
Lenovo ThinkPad SL510 Notebook (28479UU) $919.99

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-SL510-Notebook-28479UU/dp/B0032WBIYU
 

HP Pavilion DV6-3052NR NoteBook Intel Core i7 720QM(1.60GHz) 15.6" 6GB Memory 500GB HDD 7200rpm DVD Super Multi ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 $999.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834157387


Acer Aspire AS7745G-6572 NoteBook Intel Core i7 720QM(1.60GHz) 17.3" 4GB Memory DDR3 1066 500GB HDD 5400rpm DVD Super Multi ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 $949.00

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834115820


lenovo IdeaPad Y560(0646-56U) NoteBook Intel Core i7 740QM(1.73GHz) 15.6" Wide XGA 6GB Memory DDR3 1066 640GB HDD 5400rpm BD Combo ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5730 $1199.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834146850


Intel® Core™ i7-720QM Processor (6M Cache, 1.60 GHz) 6 MB level 3 cache

http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43122


M Tech 15.4 in laptop with I7 720QM 1.6 GHz with 6 MB level 3 cache, windows home premium 64, $1760
http://www.discountpcsales.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=MTECHM8600


http://www.m-techlaptops.com/indexofnotebooks.htm


List of I7 level 3 cache sizes
http://www.intel.com/products/processor/corei7/mobile/specifications.htm



-------------------------
Intel E8400 Core 2 Duo 3.00 GHz Wolfdale 6MB L2 cache CPU, Gigabyte EP45-UD3P motherboard, 4 GB DDR2 1066 RAM, Buddy USB pod 6g sound card, The Boom C microphone, Seagate 475 GB 7200 RPM hard drive, Windows XP SP3. DNS Preferred 10.1,

 Coming soon:

Intel i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 socket CPU, 8 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3 1333 RAM, GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3 LGA 1156 Intel P55 USB 3.0 mombo, ZALMAN CNPS9900A LED 120mm 2 Ball Low-noise Blue LED CPU Cooler, SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s  Hard Drive, AeroCool BX-500 Black 0.8mm SECC Super Mid-Tower Computer Case, Antec EarthWatts EA-500D Green 500W PSU.

 Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer + Internet (MCSE+I)

Many thanks for your helpful input. Unfortunately I am constrained to certain Lenovo machines by my employer, but that gives me insight into what I should push for if there is any flexibility.

Aldebaran,

With DNS 11 and BestMatch IV, the more L3 cache the better just as the more cores the better.  If you choose to use BestMatch III, then the same applies for DNS 11 as DNS 10.  Also, the more and the faster the RAM, the better in DNS 11 with BestMatch IV.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower® Ultimate

"About the time we can make the ends meet, somebody moves the ends." Herbert Hoover

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That’s too bad about your employer restricting you to a certain brand. I don’t see that Lenovo offers a laptop with more than 3 MB of cache. the one I listed below has the most powerful processor available in the Lenovo line.

IdeaPad Z560 Laptop - 09143LU – Black, $899.00 Intel® Core™ i5-460M Processor ( 2.53GHz 1066MHz 3MB ), 4 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1066MHz

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=BC627D49E90448EC9ED6DDD0C1594B9A

http://www.lenovo.com/us/en/#ss

Really for a hundred dollars more you can get a more powerful processor. You might ask your employer what is the reason for wanting to go with the Lenovo line. In my opinion these laptops are a tad overpriced for what they offer. Perhaps the service is better than other vendors. I don’t know. Perhaps you could suggest to them that they give you the money they think is right for laptop and you add $100 or $200 and get what you want.



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Intel E8400 Core 2 Duo 3.00 GHz Wolfdale 6MB L2 cache CPU, Gigabyte EP45-UD3P motherboard, 4 GB DDR2 1066 RAM, Buddy USB pod 6g sound card, The Boom C microphone, Seagate 475 GB 7200 RPM hard drive, Windows XP SP3. DNS Preferred 10.1,

 Coming soon:

Intel i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 socket CPU, 8 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3 1333 RAM, GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3 LGA 1156 Intel P55 USB 3.0 mombo, ZALMAN CNPS9900A LED 120mm 2 Ball Low-noise Blue LED CPU Cooler, SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s  Hard Drive, AeroCool BX-500 Black 0.8mm SECC Super Mid-Tower Computer Case, Antec EarthWatts EA-500D Green 500W PSU.

 Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer + Internet (MCSE+I)

Sadly I live in a bureaucratic bubble.

Guess what? Lenovo does offer a better laptop. They are under workstations, mobile workstation.

http://www.lenovo.com


http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/na/LenovoPortal/en_US/special-offers.workflow:ShowPromo?LandingPage=/All/US/Landing_pages/Info/09/Workstation


http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=FB35C8C3EB6B4076848E1488F7083D90

Scroll down and select the version of the ThinkPad W510 that has a base price of $1599. Then customize the configuration for processor and RAM.

ThinkPad W510 laptop with discrete graphics $1684

Intel Core i7-720QM Processor (6M Cache, 1.60GHz)Genuine Windows 7 Professional 6415.6" HD Anti-Glare Display with LED Backlight and WWAN Antenna
4 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (1 DIMM)

The laptop is overpriced for what it offers but at least it exists. They also have an option for a model with a better processor with 8 MB of level 3 cache and more and faster RAM.



ThinkPad W510 4318 $2314
Intel Core i7-820QM Processor (8M Cache, 1.73 GHz)
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64
15.6" HD Anti-Glare Display with LED Backlight and WWAN Antenna
8 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)

-------------------------
Intel E8400 Core 2 Duo 3.00 GHz Wolfdale 6MB L2 cache CPU, Gigabyte EP45-UD3P motherboard, 4 GB DDR2 1066 RAM, Buddy USB pod 6g sound card, The Boom C microphone, Seagate 475 GB 7200 RPM hard drive, Windows XP SP3. DNS Preferred 10.1,

 Coming soon:

Intel i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1156 socket CPU, 8 GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3 1333 RAM, GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3 LGA 1156 Intel P55 USB 3.0 mombo, ZALMAN CNPS9900A LED 120mm 2 Ball Low-noise Blue LED CPU Cooler, SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s  Hard Drive, AeroCool BX-500 Black 0.8mm SECC Super Mid-Tower Computer Case, Antec EarthWatts EA-500D Green 500W PSU.

 Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer + Internet (MCSE+I)

Thank you for this very helpful Lenovo information and links.  That gives me a fighting chance to get a decent machine.  I greatly appreciate your interest and efforts on my behalf! 

-------------------------
DNS 12.0 Professional, Windows 7, Intel Core i7 2630QM, 16GB of RAM. Second-Generation SpeechWare 6-in-1.

brainybanana,

While I would agree with you in principle, you have to separate performance vs. accuracy.

Accuracy is dependent upon the quality of the output signal from your microphone/soundcard. Anything that distorts the output signal, such as the volume being too high (clipping) or the volume being too low (clarity) negatively impacts on accuracy. A simple analogy on the effect of excessive volume can be understood in terms of what happens when you turn up the volume on your stereo or surround sound theater system with a set of speakers that can't handle the amplitude of that signal output. The irritating buzzing and vibration that results from driving the speaker cones beyond their capacity to properly reproduce sound quality is what results. That is, the volume exceeds the capability of the speakers to accurately reproduce the full range of sound, hence reducing the quality. A simple analogy of the effect volume that is too low is what happens to the ability of a friend to hear you when you whisper at a rock concert. As regards speech recognition, the consequent result in either case is that the output signal impedes the capability of the Acoustic Model to accurately recognize your speech.

In addition, if the output signal is subject to the introduction of EMI or EMF, or white noise, which you can't hear but which is picked up by DNS, distorts the output signal. That is it adds unwanted attributes and nuances to the output signal. Any human speech recognition, the human brain is more than capable of adapting and adjusting to these types of issues. However, computer based speech recognition is not because it is not based on words, it is an entirely mathematical (stochastic) process that actually compares the frequency spectrogram based on your speech input to the collection spectrogram's contained in the Acoustic Model, which then, through various algorithms, converts the BestMatch between your speech input and the Acoustic Model to a string of phonetic equivalents. Anything that introduces distortion into this process makes it more difficult for DNS to accurately compare the voice patterns in your speech to the voice patterns in the Acoustic Model.

Further, speech recognition doesn't understand the meaning of words, nor can it use the same kind of common sense context that the human brain has at its beck and call. That is, computer based speech recognition can't see or hear, or interpret speech based on the other perceptual capabilities of the human brain. It can only compare voice patterns, convert them into phonetic equivalents, determine where the phonetic equivalent of words begin and end and then compare the entire phonetic string of words to the right/left context equivalents contained in the Language Model.

Anything in the input/output signal that results in any kind of lack of clarity significantly and negatively impacts on accuracy. Therefore, the microphone/soundcard combination is the single most important part of accurate speech recognition. In your case, the combination of the Sennheiser ME-3 and the Buddy USB 6G represents an optimal combination: (a) because this combination produces an optimal signal output, and (b) the Sennheiser ME-3 is specifically designed for the type of noise canceling essential to speech recognition. Keep in mind that not all noise canceling technologies are ideal for speech recognition. So, simply purchasing a microphone that the manufacturer says is "noise canceling" doesn't mean that the technology is either suited for or designed for speech recognition. There is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to noise canceling. There are numerous types of noise canceling and many of these are not designed for speech recognition, are overly aggressive, or are insufficient for proper signal clarity. Regardless, if your microphone/soundcard combination is not well suited for speech recognition, all the enunciation and optimal dictation style will not help you achieve good recognition accuracy. Basically, the buck stops here, so to speak.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you. All things being equal clear and precise enunciation, smooth and natural dictating style, dictating in longer phrases, avoiding slurring your words or running words together, or mumbling are factors that are essential to good recognition accuracy provided that you have the optimal hardware (microphone/soundcard) to support such. However, it is a 98% because part of the equation involves the microphone/soundcard and heart of it involves the speech recognition software. It's more like 70%. Nevertheless, next to the microphone/soundcard, is the most essential factor in achieving good accuracy.

Lastly, while the computer hardware itself impact on performance, it has little to do with accuracy because accuracy is governed primarily by those factors discussed above. However, depending upon the version of DNS that you're using, the computer hardware must support it. That is, if you're running an older Pentium 4 single core processor that doesn't support SSE2, then you can't use DNS 10.1 or DNS 11. In addition, if you don't have sufficient RAM, your system is going to run slow relative to DNS.

Performance is speed. Speed equates with latency (i.e., the time from dictation to display of text). The older the system hardware, the greater the latency. One of the main factors that you proves or impacts either positively or negatively on latency is the amount of L2 or L3 cache. Cache is many times faster than RAM and is also not subject to the bottlenecks involved in RAM I/O access. Also, L2 cache is dedicated. That is, each processor in a multicore CPU has its own dedicated L2 cache and the L2 cache cannot be shared across cores. On the other hand L3 cache is what is called SmartCache. That is, not only is each core assigned its own amount of cache (both L2 and L3) all of the L3 cache from any core can be shared across all the other cores as necessary. In addition, the instruction sets that are contained in these CPUs are capable of determining when and how L3 cache is necessary or used, or when the information contained in any portion of the L3 cache is appropriate or essential to a particular process. This greatly improves performance because it reduces what are called cache misses, which result in having to go out to either RAM or the hard drive to get the information necessary. Systems that only use L2 cache are more prone to cache misses than systems that have both L2 and L3 cache. Therefore, the new Intel Core™ i processors are many times more efficient in terms of performance than the previous Core2™ Duo or Core2™ Quad and several hundred times more efficient than earlier processors.

So, the bottom line is that as far as CPUs are concerned, the only impact is whether or not you get optimal performance (speed). Accuracy is independent of whether you're using a Netbook with an Intel Atom™ or Core™ i7 980X Extreme Edition. However, the amount of time that you have to wait between completing an utterance and the display of text is impacted by the hardware configuration.

One further point. DNS 11 is optimized for multithreading/multicore support. That is, it will take advantage of any computer system that has a dual core CPU and a minimum of 2 GB of RAM. By default, DNS 11 uses BestMatch IV, which creates to acoustic models and runs your speech input through to parallel processes using two cores simultaneously. Unfortunately, DNS has set the requirements for BestMatch IV (default) to liberally. Hence, some users will end up with BestMatch IV in cases where it is not ideally suited for their hardware configuration. On the other hand, with DNS 11 you can manually select BestMatch III. The only difference between BestMatch IV and BestMatch III is multicore/multithreading. Otherwise, the algorithms contained in both are identical and use the same base Acoustic and Language Models. There is no loss of accuracy by choosing either BestMatch IV or BestMatch III. So, if BestMatch IV is too slow, you can create a new user using BestMatch III, which will improve latency on slower machines.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower® Ultimate

"We are all victims of mythology in one way or another. We are the inheritors, and many times the propagators, of a desire to believe what we want to believe, regardless of whether or not it is true." -- J.V. Stewart

-------------------------

Chuck, Many thanks for your comprehensive and very helpful note. I am constrained as to replacement options for my laptop. They are: Lenovo T410 with Core i5-520 (2.4GHz) or Lenovo T510 with Core i7 720 (QM) (1.6GHz). Which would you suggest?

Michael,

Core i7 720 (QM) (1.6GHz).

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower® Ultimate

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -- Mark Twain

-------------------------

Chuck, many thanks for your reply. I was not sure about the trade off between the Core i7 having a slower speed but larger L3 cache.

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DNS 12.0 Professional, Windows 7, Intel Core i7 2630QM, 16GB of RAM. Second-Generation SpeechWare 6-in-1.