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Topic Title: Low System Resources
Topic Summary: Low system resources says DragonBar
Created On: 08/28/2008 08:30 AM
Status: Post and Reply
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Low System Resources   - cactustweeter - 08/28/2008 08:30 AM  
 Low System Resources   - Chucker - 08/28/2008 09:32 AM  
 Low System Resources   - cactustweeter - 08/28/2008 09:19 PM  
 Low System Resources   - Chucker - 08/28/2008 10:44 PM  
 Low System Resources   - Dublanite - 10/10/2008 11:06 PM  
 Low System Resources   - Lunis Orcutt - 10/11/2008 07:45 PM  
 Low System Resources   - brainbark - 05/04/2009 05:19 PM  
 Low System Resources   - Jomark - 10/12/2008 07:03 AM  
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 08/28/2008 08:30 AM
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cactustweeter
Senior Member

Posts: 112
Joined: 05/12/2007

In the following environment:

Dell Precision M65 Laptop, Core2 T7600 @ 2.33 GHz, 80 GB HD 4 GB RAM, Andrea USB Pod, Sennheiser MD431 II, Windows XP Pro SP2, DNS 9.5 Pro

DNS occasionally becomes unresponsive and I notice in the Dragon bar a message saying something like "trying to recover from low system resources".  Now I searched the forum and only found people experiencing this issue were the ones gathering data for a custom vocabulary.  I however have not signed up for the Nuance custom vocabulary offer, so my issue is probably not related.

From what I can remember, this issue generally happens after DNS has been running for several hours, and I have a bunch of applications running.  I have 4 GB of RAM, and when I have looked at the task manager, during the event, I haven't seen RAM anywhere close to being used up, or anything else that seems peculiar.  So what system resource is DNS referring to that I am running low on?  Any way to debug this?

Thanks...



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Dragon in use.  Occasionally mistakes are made.  I correct the ones I notice... 

 08/28/2008 09:32 AM
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Chucker
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Posts: 11001
Joined: 10/10/2006

Quote:
In the following environment:

Dell Precision M65 Laptop, Core2 T7600 @ 2.33 GHz, 80 GB HD 4 GB RAM, Andrea USB Pod, Sennheiser MD431 II, Windows XP Pro SP2, DNS 9.5 Pro DNS occasionally becomes unresponsive and I notice in the Dragon bar a message saying something like "trying to recover from low system resources".

Now I searched the forum and only found people experiencing this issue were the ones gathering data for a custom vocabulary. I however have not signed up for the Nuance custom vocabulary offer, so my issue is probably not related. From what I can remember, this issue generally happens after DNS has been running for several hours, and I have a bunch of applications running.

I have 4 GB of RAM, and when I have looked at the task manager, during the event, I haven't seen RAM anywhere close to being used up, or anything else that seems peculiar. So what system resource is DNS referring to that I am running low on? Any way to debug this?

Most computer users assume that when they received a low system resources that this refers to RAM. Not so.

This error has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of RAM available for applications. What it refers to is that, if you take a look, Windows uses approximately 772 MB of RAM to handle peripherals, drivers, and what is called the system resource heap. The resource heap is divided into 2 x 64K blocks. Each of these blocks stores information relative to your graphics and user information. For example, each time you launch Microsoft Word, Windows enters information on the application loaded, the information contained in that active window, and the and the location and type of graphical interface. When you close Microsoft Word, Windows removes this information from the resource heap. Before Windows XP, Windows was very inefficient in handling the resource heaps and you very often had to reboot the system numerous times during the day to recover the space allocated to these heaps. Windows XP, and subsequent versions of Windows, handles these resource heaps much more efficiently. The result is that you seldom see this kind of error. However, when you have DNS open for an extended period of time (i.e., as you say "several hours" or if you leave the system idle with the microphone off, but asleep, the amount of resources in the resource heap builds up and isn't cleared by Windows because that information is still active.

DNS does its best to try to recover system resources from the resource heap by attempting to determine what information is still valid and necessary and what information is not. This process takes anywhere from 3 to 10 minutes. In most cases if you simply turn off the microphone and let the process continue, DNS will recover and become receptive/responsive again. However, sometimes the amount of information that is necessary to DNS does not leave sufficient space in the resource heap to allow DNS to continue. Again, this has nothing to do with the 2.99 or 3.38 GB of RAM available to applications. This has to do with the amount of available space in the 128K allocated for resource information (2 x 64K -- GUI/USER resources).

When this occurs, and yes it can occur more frequently for those that are using the data collection tool because of the amount and type of information that is being collected but it is not unique to that circumstance, it simply means that there is no available space in the resource heap that would allow Dragon NaturallySpeaking to continue until sufficient information is purged. It may seem like 64K is a tiny amount of memory to be allocated to each type of resource heap. However, the information that is contained in such is very small relative to what you have loaded and active as regards DNS and other applications. When the resource he must be cleared, and there is insufficient information contained therein that can be removed without affecting the current status of DNS, then you may find that DNS cannot clear the resource heap and simply appears to hang while it is attempting to do so.

Rather than wait for this to occur, the simple solution is to simply close your user and reopen it. Sometimes DNS is still hooked to an application and you can get the response that DNS cannot close for that reason. However, if this occurs simply save your user files, and then shut down DNS via the task manager. Then, restart DNS and reopen your user. This will solve the problem.

Nonetheless, it is a good idea when you have been using DNS for a long period of time or when it has been idle with the microphone asleep to close your user and reopen it. This will effectively reset the resource heap and prevent this from happening. Keep in mind that DNS is much more resource intensive than other applications depending upon the settings (e.g., "Always preserve wave data" etc.). However, because of the benefits of some of the settings, is not necessarily practical or advisable to turn them off. Simply close and reopen your users periodically. I am sure that you have noticed that there is no consistency to win this occurs (i.e., every four hours, every two hours, etc.). This is because as regards this issue it all depends upon what your doing with DNS during this period. It can happen sooner or later, or not at all. One way of reducing the propensity of this type of situation to occur is to ensure that any time DNS is idle for any length of time, to make sure that you turn off the microphone and not simply put it to sleep.

In addition, there seems to be a significantly lower propensity for this to happen in DNS 10 than in DNS 9-9.5. Nevertheless, it can occur in both given circumstances where resource allocation exceeds resource needs.

Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (quoted any number of times by Mr. Spock-Star Trek)



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 08/28/2008 09:19 PM
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cactustweeter
Senior Member

Posts: 112
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Thanks for the detailed answer.  I have ordered my DNS Pro 10 upgrade and I'm looking forward to getting it up and running.  Since this low system resource issue can still occur in version 10, I think I might try writing a macro to close and reopen my user.  But before I invest any time in writing the macro, do you see any roadblocks to making it a reality?  Besides my programming skills of course.  :-)

-------------------------

Dragon in use.  Occasionally mistakes are made.  I correct the ones I notice... 

 08/28/2008 10:44 PM
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Chucker
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Posts: 11001
Joined: 10/10/2006

Quote:
Thanks for the detailed answer. I have ordered my DNS Pro 10 upgrade and I'm looking forward to getting it up and running. Since this low system resource issue can still occur in version 10, I think I might try writing a macro to close and reopen my user. But before I invest any time in writing the macro, do you see any roadblocks to making it a reality? Besides my programming skills of course.


Writing a macro to automate this process presents an interesting paradox.

First, from within DNS, a voice command can only execute so long as natspeak.exe is loaded along with your user profile. Even if the script allows you to close your user, which may not occur if DNS attempts to keep the script active and in which case you may find that DNS hangs, worst case scenario in which case you lose any additions to your user profile because you end up having to close NaturallySpeaking manually via the task manager or a third-party application such as Process Explore, in which case your user will not be saved. In short, it's a paradoxical Catch-22. DNS scripting commands can only be executed if your user profile is loaded and active. Once you close your user voice commands ceased to function. Therefore, there's no way to open your user profile again because the best case scenario is that the script is not active.

Second, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to create a macro to closure user when there is already a simple voice command to do so.

Lastly, unless Larry Alan pipes in and tells us differently or has a solution that bypasses the basic paradox, the only way that you can do this is by creating a macro externally via some other form of macro creation utility, which you can place on your desktop and double-click it to reopen your user. However, this is kind of a reinventing the wheel with a couple of extra spokes because it is simply much easier to right-click on the microphone in the system tray, select file from the NaturallySpeaking menu, and select "open recent user".

The way that I see it and based on my knowledge of DNS and Advanced Scripting, this isn't possible from within DNS.

Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS

There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. - Peter Drucker



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 10/10/2008 11:06 PM
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Dublanite
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Posts: 15
Joined: 08/25/2008

I sure appreciate the information in this forum, and especially the knowledge that Chuck has provided. However, my own experience with the "trying to recover from low system resources" message is quite different than the one described. I'm also running a new Dell laptop with 4 GB of RAM and 160 GB hard drive. I'm a quadriplegic and cannot use my hands to help with task manager etc. if the machine freezes or stops responding for whatever reason. I find the description of the "resource heap" to make a lot of sense, although it does not seem to help me find a solution that I can think of. This is especially true since my experience with this error message has been much different.

I have used Dragon since the DOS days and have found it adequate until now using version 9.0, 9.5 and version 10. I provide application support throughout the day and must use Internet Explorer for some of this. Mozilla Firefox slows me down and I do not find it nearly as compatible with DNS. After installing DNS 9.0 I started getting error messages whenever using the command "system menu", "click maximize", "click close" and "click minimize". Each time I did this Internet Explorer would stop responding and consequently I would lose control of the computer. I did have some success retraining myself to use the menu system for exiting or "close window" which both worked. This was happening with Internet Explorer 7.0. Consequently, I uninstalled IE 7, however this promptly occurred with IE 6 as well. The next step was to try IE 8 beta and I stopped having problems with those particular command's completely.

Throughout this time I was getting the "low system resources" error which would also lock up IE 8. Of course , with this problem I can find no way around it. Sometimes this will happen within the first couple of minutes of starting up my computer and opening a single browser session. In fact, this is not uncommon. This will always happen to me within a couple of hours of trying to use IE 8 or any other version of Internet Explorer. I have kept my startup programs to a bare minimum as well as by processes. I have uninstalled and reinstalled these browser versions to try to isolate the problem. There are times when I have opened several tabs and even 20 or 30 different browser windows just to push the system and it will seem to work just fine for quite a while. I get this error message with no other applications whether by Microsoft or any other company. This never happens using Mozilla Firefox or Google Chrome. Consequently, I'm mostly trying to use Firefox as much as I can and when I have to use Internet Explorer to make sure there is a family member at home can help me with task manager and so forth. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!



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Mike Jarvis (dublanite) – mjarvis@pobox.com
DNS 11.5 Premium on Windows 7 Pro 64-bit --  
4 GB RAM, 2.4 GHz Dual Core Dell Laptop, , Plantronics DSP mic –
 10/11/2008 07:45 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Posts: 25343
Joined: 10/01/2006

                                Welcome to the KnowBrainer Forums

Our 1st recommendation would be to fill out the form on the bottom of page one in our What is KnowBrainer PDF file to obtain an NFR copy over our KnowBrainer 2008 command software because when you are physically disabled, trying to use DNS Preferred, from a command perspective, is like typing with the mouth stick. For example: In KnowBrainer you can say Task Manager Processes and KnowBrainer will open the Task Manager to the Processes tab and move the cursor into the applications box so that you can say the name of the appropriate application you wish to select.

However, you shouldn't be running low on system resources. We are utilizing 3 Gb of RAM while running IE 7, Ace Explorer, Firefox, Outlook 2007, KnowBrainer, DNS Pro 10, Word 2007, several complex Excel spreadsheets, Office Communicator and about 60 other utilities. We are also using Windows Vista, which eats up an additional gigabyte of RAM but we typically only reboot your computer once a week. What we're trying to say is that the problem is most likely something else (possibly connected to Internet Explorer) on your Dell computer and it is almost assuredly one of those miserable bloat ware utilities which is why we don't recommend purchasing computers from major manufacturers.

Our 1st recommendation is to make this a Dell warranty problem but we also have a possible workaround. Consider using Ace Explorer which is equivalent to Internet Explorer lite. You may even have a difficult time telling the difference. Although you won't have any built-in NaturallySpeaking commands, you will be able to verbally click links, buttons etc. as you do in IE 8 without the additional overhead because you're using the Internet Explorer browser engine. Whenever we try to Maximize, Restore, Minimize etc.. IE 7 it results in an Internet Explorer freeze so we've gotten used to using Ace Explorer in our shipping for stability reasons. We like Firefox but it isn't quite fully compatible with DNS and Google Chrome, from a speech recognition perspective, is a joke.


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 05/04/2009 05:19 PM
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brainbark
Junior Member

Posts: 4
Joined: 01/29/2008

In the following current environment:

Dell Optiplex 755 Desktop, Core2 Duo E8200 @ 2.66 GHz, 80 GB HD, 2 GB RAM, Plantronics CS55, Windows XP Pro SP3, DNS 10 Preferred. 

I too am getting the dreaded "attempting to recover from low system resources" message at least 1-2x per computer session, usually when I am in Microsoft Word, but running several other applications at the same time e.g. Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, Photoshop and WordPad. Sometimes this happens within 30 minutes of starting my computer in the morning. Usually I just turn the microphone off and wait. About half the time, the system recovers successfully, but the other half of the time, I lose whatever phrases I just uttered. I recently upgraded to a new desktop, with a faster CPU, and twice the memory, but the "low system resources" message happens just as frequently.



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Michael 

Dell Optiplex 755 Desktop, Core 2 Duo E8200 @ 2.66 GHz, 80 GB HD, 2 GB RAM, Plantronics CS55, Windows XP Pro SP3, DNS 11 Pro

 10/12/2008 07:03 AM
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Jomark
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Joined: 10/19/2006

i HAVE ALSO EXPERIENCED THIS PROBLEM ON OCCASIONS AND HAVE SUSPECTED THAT MY SECURITY SOFTWARE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.

HOWEVER, FROM CHUCKER'S EXPLANATION THERE MAY BE OTHER REASONS.

IT HAPPENS SO INFREQUENTLY THAT I HAVE JUST LEARNED TO LIVE WITH IT AS IT EVENTUALLY COME RIGHT AGAIN.



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Jomark
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