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Topic Title: Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time
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Created On: 08/07/2020 12:30 AM
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 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/07/2020 12:30 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Lunis Orcutt - 08/07/2020 01:39 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/07/2020 01:56 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Lunis Orcutt - 08/07/2020 11:19 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - R. Wilke - 08/07/2020 01:02 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - Mphillipson - 08/07/2020 04:21 AM  
 Really annoying problem:   - AOF - 08/07/2020 04:39 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Lunis Orcutt - 08/07/2020 09:19 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Zig - 08/07/2020 07:47 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/08/2020 02:46 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - R. Wilke - 08/08/2020 04:33 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/09/2020 03:28 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Lunis Orcutt - 08/09/2020 04:50 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/12/2020 04:04 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - Lunis Orcutt - 08/13/2020 02:08 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/13/2020 02:48 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - LexiconCode - 08/12/2020 04:49 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - LexiconCode - 08/12/2020 11:13 AM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - PG LTU - 08/12/2020 05:51 PM  
 Really annoying problem: "newline" is interpreted as "new" some of the time   - AOF - 08/12/2020 06:40 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - Alan Cantor - 08/12/2020 05:59 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - PG LTU - 08/12/2020 07:39 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - PG LTU - 08/13/2020 11:00 AM  
 Really annoying problem:   - R. Wilke - 08/13/2020 12:26 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - PG LTU - 08/13/2020 01:00 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - Matt_Chambers - 08/13/2020 01:45 PM  
 Really annoying problem:   - R. Wilke - 08/13/2020 01:52 PM  
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 08/07/2020 12:30 AM
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AOF
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I was using DNS 15.30 but my os was corrupted and I had to format my hard drive. When I reinstalled DNS it started showing this issue that it wasn't showing before: about 20% of the time I say "newline," it prints the word "new" instead of executing the command. It happens frequently enough that I feel like there's a real issue here. I'm using the same Mic as before, same DNS version, same OS, and this never happened before I reinstalled.

Does anyone know what could be causing this or how to troubleshoot it? I am using natlink and caster.

 08/07/2020 01:39 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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This problem would likely clear up if you created a new user profile but you could optionally try training this vocabulary command or substituting with the next line command.



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 08/07/2020 01:56 AM
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AOF
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt This problem would likely clear up if you created a new user profile but you could optionally try training this vocabulary command or substituting with the next line command.

 

 

I've already created a new user profile once and it didn't fix it but maybe 3rd times a charm. What do you mean by "Try training this vocabulary command"? How do you do that?

 08/07/2020 11:19 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Commands are nothing more than a group of words. Just type out the words you want to train (the name of command), highlight your phrase and say Train Words. If you're not using KnowBrainer, click DragonBar Tools/Accuracy Center/Improve recognition of word or phrase.  



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 08/07/2020 01:02 PM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: AOF
Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt This problem would likely clear up if you created a new user profile but you could optionally try training this vocabulary command or substituting with the next line command.  

 

 

 

 

 

I've already created a new user profile once and it didn't fix it but maybe 3rd times a charm. What do you mean by "Try training this vocabulary command"? How do you do that?

 

 

 

 

If it "only" happens about 20% of the time, the user profile or the vocabulary certainly isn't the issue, as otherwise it would happen all the time. 

 

Not sure if training "new line" does the trick, but the correct way would be:

 

Open the vocabulary, locate "new line" (which is only a spoken form without a written form, because it doesn't type anything), select it and click on "Train".

 

My assumption, however, is that the issue is related with the input, most likely with the pronunciation.

 

 



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 08/07/2020 04:21 AM
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Mphillipson
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You could also try creating a new vocabulary instead of a new profile as it is quicker.

Just say the phrase:

Manage Vocabularies

Please note when you have more than one, Dragon will prompt you and ask which one to use when opening. Therefore you may wish to delete the existing one once you've opened the new one.

Also if you have custom words, you need to export them from the original vocabulary and import them into the new one.

Commands would be:

import custom words
export custom words



This has helped me in the past when the vocabulary has become corrupted.



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 08/07/2020 04:39 PM
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AOF
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Originally posted by: Mphillipson You could also try creating a new vocabulary instead of a new profile as it is quicker. Just say the phrase: Manage Vocabularies Please note when you have more than one, Dragon will prompt you and ask which one to use when opening. Therefore you may wish to delete the existing one once you've opened the new one. Also if you have custom words, you need to export them from the original vocabulary and import them into the new one.

 

Commands would be:

 

import custom words export custom words

 

This has helped me in the past when the vocabulary has become corrupted.

 

 

what do I do after I say manage vocabularies?

 

Note to others: if I say new line slow enough, it can print out as 2 words at once. it's like it's not always recognized as a command.



 08/07/2020 09:19 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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new line is a Vocabulary Editor command which means that pausing is optional; not required. You should be able to say Lunis Orcutt new line 718 rogues fork road new line bethpage Tennessee three seven zero two two, in one breath, to produce:


Lunis Orcutt
718 Rogues Fork Rd
Bethpage, TN 37022

 

next line works the same way so if you can't find a solution, you can substitute with next line. You might also try deleting new line and then adding it back with the next line rules.



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 08/07/2020 07:47 PM
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Zig
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The issue may be in whether or not you are pausing before saying "new line" (and what your program settings are.)
Zig



 08/08/2020 02:46 PM
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AOF
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I think I figured out how to create a new vocabulary and the problem seems to have mostly gone away. I have a feeling that it will come back, but when it does I can just create a new vocabulary again. Thank you all for the help!

Update: and after a day of no issues, the problem came back 5 times in a row until I just used the keyboard



 08/08/2020 04:33 PM
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R. Wilke
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Originally posted by: AOF I think I figured out how to create a new vocabulary and the problem seems to have mostly gone away. I have a feeling that it will come back, but when it does I can just create a new vocabulary again. Thank you all for the help!

 

Update: and after a day of no issues, the problem came back 5 times in a row until I just used the keyboard

 

 

As I mentioned above, the problem is not with the vocabulary, because if it was, it would be either 0% or 100% failure or success. 

 

Try this, instead:

 

Speak "new line" without pausing before and after, such as in: 

 

This is one line new line and this is a second line new paragraph [Pause]

 

And do that up to five times in a row. But make sure to enunciate every single word clearly enough, and if you do, I'll bet dollars to donuts that it will work flawlessly. 

 

 

 



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 08/09/2020 03:28 PM
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AOF
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This is one line new law and in this is a 2nd line

This is one line
and this is a 2nd line

This is one line
and this is one

This is one line
and this is one

This is one line new and this is a 2nd line

This is one line
and this is a 2nd line

This is one line new and this is a 2nd line

This is one line
and this is a 2nd line

This is one line new and this is a 2nd line

 

here is the result of my attempt. As you can see, I have very low accuracy for the "new line" phrase and some other words. Another annoying thing is it seems to be ignoring syllables sometimes. I don't have a speech impediment and in my opinion I'm speaking clearly.

What does this mean? Do I need a new mic? I am using a blue yeti, and it's quite expensive, so I figured it should be good enough for dictation.



 08/09/2020 04:50 PM
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Lunis Orcutt
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Originally posted by: AOF I am using a blue yeti, and it's quite expensive, so I figured it should be good enough for dictation.

 



We believe you have potentially identified the problem. This is exactly why you should only purchase specialty utility peripherals from professionals rather than Amazon. You won't find the Blue Yeti in our USB Microphone offerings because it doesn't meet our minimum standards.



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 08/12/2020 04:04 PM
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AOF
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt
Originally posted by: AOF I am using a blue yeti, and it's quite expensive, so I figured it should be good enough for dictation.

 

 

 

We believe you have potentially identified the problem. This is exactly why you should only purchase specialty utility peripherals from professionals rather than Amazon. You won't find the Blue Yeti in our USB Microphone offerings because it doesn't meet our minimum standards.

 

okay, I accept that and will buy a new microphone, but there's another issue I have that I want to point out: about 5-10% of the time I say "copy" or "cut" it prints the word instead of running the command. Since it is printing the exact word, I don't think this can be chocked up to a bad microphone, right? If the microphone was bad, it would print a different word from the command, wouldn't it?

Couldn't this be evidence that a new microphone won't fix the "new line" problem I'm having?

 08/13/2020 02:08 AM
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Lunis Orcutt
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This could be a recognition issue but it's often easy to reteach Dragon commands. Try holding your finger on the {Ctrl} Key and say Copy. Then quickly remove your finger. Dragon may type nothing but if all works, Dragon will learn that Copy is a command and not dictation.



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 08/13/2020 02:48 AM
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AOF
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt This could be a recognition issue but it's often easy to reteach Dragon commands. Try holding your finger on the {Ctrl} Key and say Copy. Then quickly remove your finger. Dragon may type nothing but if all works, Dragon will learn that Copy is a command and not dictation.

 

can I do that with the "new line" command too?

 08/12/2020 04:49 PM
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LexiconCode
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Originally posted by: Lunis Orcutt
Originally posted by: AOF I am using a blue yeti, and it's quite expensive, so I figured it should be good enough for dictation.

 

 

 

You won't find the Blue Yeti in our USB Microphone offerings because it doesn't meet our minimum standards.

 

 

Would it be possible to include microphones that did not meet your minimum standards that you've tested on a separate list? It could be just a simple list of model numbers without the included stats as I know that takes time to compile for presentation.  That would be helpful for the community.



 08/12/2020 11:13 AM
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LexiconCode
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As Lunis has said it can be related to the microphone. However I've had another user report this issue as well. I did some investigating and have been able to catch Dragon reporting the command as dictation.

I was able to reproduce this by saying `new line` repeatedly with significant pauses before and after. On occasion DPI would print `new line` instead of executing command. You can review the recognition history to see if it's recognized as a command or dictation.



 08/12/2020 05:51 PM
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PG LTU
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Yep, sure sounds like a mic issue. But after any significant time dictating with all these errors (and particularly errors that are not easily corrected because they involve formatting and/or non-character output), you probably need a new profile, too.

Anyway, it would be easy to test if you have a laptop with a built in array (or any other mic you can plug into your computer - even phone earbuds with a mic element can be plugged in to most PCs mic input jack). But no matter what, start with the new profile first, even crappy mics can perform well on Dragon 15 and up so long as the profile is not corrupted (e.g., I hope your profile wasn't upgraded from an earlier version profile). And corruption, the way I mean it is, includes merely allowing multiple bad recognition events to go uncorrected.

Another thing: Try using the WO Mic app on your mobile phone. I've found that to be exceptional whether holding it and speaking into it as a handset, using bluetooth earbuds, the corded earbuds that came with the phone, and even recently just leaving it flat on the desk like a table mic (at about 18 - 22" away from my face) and using the phone's built in mic like on a speaker phone (I have an old Samsung Galaxy which does have a decent mic element as far as mobiles go). Try it: https://wolicheng.com/womic/ and let us know.



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 08/12/2020 06:40 PM
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AOF
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Originally posted by: PG LTU And corruption, the way I mean it is, includes merely allowing multiple bad recognition events to go uncorrected.

 

Oh yeah, that definitely sounds like it's my issue. See it's summertime and I'm running the AC. It clicks and hums, and dragon complains about poor audio quality. Sometimes my roommate is cleaning dishes in the other room or my dog barks etc. I didn't realize this was having long-term negative effects on my accuracy, I thought the profile only got "corrupted" from me explicitly saying "correct that" or "train that." I do notice Dragon stops complaining about poor audio quality after a few days of creating a new profile, I guess it just assumes having the AC on in the background is the way my voice sounds at all times. I also notice that accuracy seems to immediately improve after I create a profile but becomes very bad after a few days.

 

So what am I supposed to do about this when i own a better mic? There's still gonna be this background noise. Doesn't this mean poor accuracy is inevitable no matter how good my mic is?

 

I don't work in programs where "correct that" can be used 99% of the time.



 08/12/2020 05:59 PM
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about 5-10% of the time I say "copy" or "cut" it prints the word instead of running the command.


It's safer and more reliable to say "copy that" and "cut that." Relying on single-syllable commands (like "cut") is asking for trouble. When you say "copy" or "cut" Dragon doesn't know whether you want the word or the command. Being a probabilistic machine, Dragon guesses.

Do you... copy? Or should I... cut... it out?
 08/12/2020 07:39 PM
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PG LTU
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Better mics (better for speech recognition, that is - like mics tuned to listen to voices for phone calls or conference rooms) will have band-widths and frequency responses that accentuate spoken words over the high end and low end frequencies useful in music or general audio recording. Quite different from broad use mics. Also, noise cancelling is a godsend for things like air conditioning, and even dishwashing and dog barks.

I also have some of those issues (and am often running a radio 4-5 feet behind me, too), and don't have a noise-cancelling mic (although my SpeechMatic TravelMic is tuned for speech). But what I do frequently is run the "Check Microphone..." function with all that background stuff humming along. I also tend to speak somewhat quieter (just a bit) than usual while doing the check. And with diligence about not correcting truly spurious results (I will close my profile without saving and then re-open it) and correcting actual misrecognitions appropriately (though by no means consistently as exigencies often thwart that effort), I have kept profiles for many months (Dragon 15 and above does not exhibit nearly the profile corruptions earlier versions did).

I suggest studying Lunis' mic suggestions and then talking to him by phone or text or email as he won't merely suggest something expensive but will try to match your actual needs with an appropriate product.

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PG





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 08/13/2020 11:00 AM
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PG LTU
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No, because "new line" is a vocabulary entry with special formatting. But you can train vocabulary. Just find its entry in the Vocabulary Editor.

However, since often enough, one dictates "new line" as its own utterance, pausing before and after, why not make a command out of it? Use "Step-by-Step" command type, and either "Enter" or better yet, "Shift + Enter" for the step.

Sort of a kludge because it doesn't really get at the reason why your recognition errors occur. It really shouldn't be _just_ the mic (although, did you try using a new dictation source yet?) as Dragon 15 (what version are you using, there is no "DNS" 15.3 - I guess you mean DPI 15.3?) is quite forgiving.

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 08/13/2020 12:26 PM
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R. Wilke
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I guess you mean DPI 15.3?) is quite forgiving.


Sorry, PG, but I have to disagree. In my experience, starting in version 15 and with the new algorithms, the acoustic model has become a lot more prevalent, and the correcting effect of the language model has become less impacting.

And along these lines, I still think that the issue at hand is down to enunciation, and not so much with the microphone because that would manifest in all kinds of recognition errors, cropping up randomly. Keep in mind that we tend to slur the final syllables in words/phrases that we use very frequently, just because it gets old. When talking to a human, it won't matter that much as it does when talking to Dragon, under the new algorithms, which is particularly relevant with unstressed syllables.

To that end, the syllable "line" in "new line" may get lost ever so often, and this is a lot more relevant as in "new paragraph", which is three syllables and therefore not prone to misrecognition in itself.

In order to prove my point, or to prove it is wrong, try enunciating "new line" differently by stressing the second syllable as opposed to the first, thus as in "new LINE".


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 08/13/2020 01:00 PM
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PG LTU
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke  Sorry, PG, but I have to disagree. In my experience, starting in version 15 and with the new algorithms, the acoustic model has become a lot more prevalent, and the correcting effect of the language model has become less impacting

 

Interesting observation.  For me, for example, I never had much success using my laptop array mic w DNS13 whereas it is only marginally worse than my TravelMic in DPG15+.  Maybe all that is accounted by auto-gain being the improvement, but that's what I see.

 

Additonally, when I added a brand new dictation source to my profile, it picked up on some of my unique pronunciations (words I've had to train) right away, whereas in the past, I'd have to re-train the word with the new mic - or it seems like I would have to more often as they might or might not ever come up, or come up wrong.  But here again, I don't know if that was related to an old issue of older Dragon "forgetting" custom pronunciations if they are not used regularly.

 

So I cannot say definitively that the mic quality is less important than it used to be, but one thing for sure I notice is that correcting words properly as you go almost immediately has the impact you would want in subsequent utterances, whereas DNS13 was more of a crapshoot leading to multiple trainings and then those trainings seemed to screw up the words that were in the misrecognition, and profiles would eventually be corrupted beyond use.



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PG





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 08/13/2020 01:45 PM
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Matt_Chambers
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Originally posted by: R. Wilke
I guess you mean DPI 15.3?) is quite forgiving.
Sorry, PG, but I have to disagree. In my experience, starting in version 15 and with the new algorithms, the acoustic model has become a lot more prevalent, and the correcting effect of the language model has become less impacting.

 

Very interesting observation.  I've been wondering why I get output that makes little grammatical sense.  Seems to me that version 15 is worse in this regard than earlier versions and your suggestion that the language model is less important could be a big reason.

 08/13/2020 01:52 PM
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R. Wilke
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Matt,

I wouldn't have mentioned it if it weren't for a big reason.


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