it would be great to be able to say things like "mouse up 350...  mouse right 936." Aside from being useful, it might add a fun, game-like element to getting the mouse where you want it. Does anyone know a way to make this possible?

Thanks,

Kurt

-------------------------

DNS rocks exhalation point

DNS 11.5, Intel Quad core i7 2600-k 3.40

yes it is. You will need to use knowbrainer for your version of Dragon.

Kurt,

the best way to move the mouse anywhere you want on the screen hands-free is to invest in a Natural Point SmartNav.  Having one of these and using it in conjunction with DNS & KB is simply the best hands-free experience you can get.  Check it out below.  It is simply amazing!

http://www.naturalpoint.com/smartnav/

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger,

I wouldn't for one minute disagree with you on this point. I have several quadriplegic clients using this hardware. However, at $499 that's kind of a very expensive alternative. Most of the clients that I deal with that need this kind of mouse control can't afford it and most of the institutions that provide financial assistance for the disabled won't pay for it. However, they will pay for VoicePower and/or KnowBrainer. Many employers are also reluctant to pay for such hardware for their disabled employees. Please understand that I'm not dissing the concept or the hardware. Nice to have if you can afford it, but not many can. VoiceTeach as a significant base of disabled clients using VoicePower, including Wells Fargo, HP, Cisco, PG&E, federal government departments and many other companies that work towards putting disabled clients back to work.

VoicePower gets very, very close to the same kind of performance, accurate positioning, and speed with mouse commands (hands-free) by voice alone at one quarter the cost.

Also, while combining VoicePower with KnowBrainer gives you the best of all worlds if you're not using the Professional versions of DNS, one or the other is all that's necessary.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"Good enough never is." - Debbi Fields: founder of Mrs. Fields Bakeries

-------------------------

First things first.  I've only just found out myself that KnowBrainer can move the mouse to certain spots on the screen.  I never knew this until now.  Fair play to that and Lunis.  I wish I'd known this before.  Just shows, you never stop being surprised or learn with this speech recognition lark.  I am very grateful as are other disabled clients I expect for KnowBrainer.

Chuck,

then how do you think I got hold of one?  This was one of the first pieces of kit I was given by the hospital charity way back in 2004.  Fortunately, I did not have to pay for it because yes, it is a little on the expensive side but you get what you pay for as they say.  Dragon back then in my opinion was not very good so the SmartNav was the cheaper option to Dragon Professional.  Many quadriplegics were given one of these from the charity 'Aspire' in Stanmore UK.  Things may be different in the USA but there's nothing wrong with a bit of fund raising from different charities.  How do you think I got Dragon Professional?  If I can do it in little old UK I'm sure others in USA could do the same.

Quote:

VoicePower gets very, very close to the same kind of performance, accurate positioning, and speed with mouse commands (hands-free) by voice alone.

Don't make me laugh!  Looking at the video of Voice Power regarding moving the mouse, this is just the same as KnowBrainer and very helpful it is but it does not get anywhere near a SmartNav regarding using the mouse especially for gaming or even playing basic games. 

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger Feet,

Speaking as a KnowBrainer and VoicePower user (and one who has the option of using the SmartNav, but prefers to use speech recognition), you've really gotta see the VoicePower screen grid (mouse movement feature) before you dismiss it. The video doesn't do it justice. I don't know what the VoicePower folks offer in terms of a trial or a money-back guarantee, but if you get the chance then try it out. You're right that the VoicePower screen grid can't move and click the mouse as quickly as a head mouse or a macro, but speech recognition as a whole can't move and click the mouse instantaneously. But in terms of actually using speech recognition to move the mouse, VoicePower has one of the cleverest implementations I've ever seen.

-------------------------

Eric Wright At work: DNS 12 Pro. At home: DNS 11.5 Pro,  KnowBrainer 2011, and Utter Command by RedStart Systems; Dragon Dictate 3 for Mac

 

Appetite for Dictation - My Blog

Well having been using Dragon since DragonDictate days I think I must have written every type of script under the sun and used all sorts of add-ons to emulate mouse activity.  I also convinced myself for over 10 years that I could do everything just as quick by voice (well quicker with lots of things).  However having stumbled upon the SmartNav head mouse about six months ago I haven't stopped using it since.

I would say it's even more natural than using your hands to control a mouse and interestingly there are lots of able-bodied users now using them.  Take your time setting it up because there are various options but at the end of the day if you can beg, steal or borrow one then I would highly recommend it as a hands-free user.  I mean no disrespect to any pieces of software or ingenious macros out there (and I have tried pretty much all of them) but you simply can't beat this device in my opinion.

Lindsay

-------------------------

www.pcbyvoice.com
www.pcbyvoice.co.uk

Lindsay,

I've seen this hardware in action and I wholeheartedly agree. It's a phenomenal piece of equipment. However, it doesn't work for people like one of my clients who has Lou Gehrig's disease and cannot move his head but can speak and enunciate clearly and uses Dragon very effectively along with VoicePower. I also have several users who can still speak clearly and enunciate, but who are suffering from advanced stages of MS who could not possibly use SmartNav for the same reason, but do use VoicePower and Dragon NaturallySpeaking Premium very effectively.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza." -- Dave Barry

-------------------------

Chuck

Regarding people with lack of head movement, unfortunately it's not suitable I agree, and you can take it a stage further still and many people with C1 quadriplegic injuries on full-time respiration, MS, muscular dystrophy, cerebral palsy can neither move their head nor speak clearly enough to use Dragon, VoicePower or any other add-on.  So then we get to Tobii eye gaze technology and of course another leap in price.

In other words absolutely everyone is different and has different requirements, what I would say is if you are hands-free user and you can move your head constantly, e.g. without pain, then try this device because it's relatively cheap when you find out how good it is.
Lindsay

-------------------------

www.pcbyvoice.com
www.pcbyvoice.co.uk

Chuck,

Fair do's but if you want to use that argument, there are some people out there that cannot speak properly or at all but can move their head such as stroke victims.  I've seen plenty of them in my local hospice.  I'm obviously talking spinal-cord injury here as I am a C3/C4 incomplete.

I saw on the news tonight a woman who was using her thoughts to make a robot give her a drink.  She could not talk or move even.  I want one of those :-)

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Which one do you want, the woman who can't talk or move, or the robot?

I know which one I would like.  :-)

Lindsay

-------------------------

www.pcbyvoice.com
www.pcbyvoice.co.uk

Personally, I wouldn't care about it as long as I get the drink.

Rüdiger

 

-------------------------

Well, it's past the point where we can make any changes in the code, but we can still make changes to the Easter Egg!

No Viagra needed here

MDH

-------------------------

Tiger, Lindsay, and other SmartNav users,

Just out of curiosity, how do you "wear" the mouse? Do you use the hat? Do you place a dot on yourselves? Do you place a dot on your headset? I abandoned the SmartNav because, in my opinion, it was "just another thing" to set up every time I needed to use the computer. I figure that with speech recognition, macros, and add-ons like the Vocal Joystick or Voice Finger, I could do all the mouse positioning that I needed with speech recognition (and, in the interest of full disclosure, a Kensington Trackball Mouse). I'm definitely willing to give the SmartNav another try, so what works for you? 

-------------------------

Eric Wright At work: DNS 12 Pro. At home: DNS 11.5 Pro,  KnowBrainer 2011, and Utter Command by RedStart Systems; Dragon Dictate 3 for Mac

 

Appetite for Dictation - My Blog

Eric,

Good question, I guess I am kind of fortunate, or unfortunate as the case may be, in that I need to wear glasses when I use my computer so I wrapped one of the square reflectors around the small bridge on the glasses between the two lenses, basically you don't realise it's there.

It works well because if my head mouse isn't working it makes me put my glasses on which is something I often couldn't be bothered doing.

Play about with the various settings, particularly speed and gravity.  Most importantly make sure you have the latest drivers and software.

Also one possibly useful tip if you are hands-free (or otherwise), if you go to the Control Panel | Mouse | Pointer Options:

There is a checkbox "Automatically move pointer to default button on a dialogue box", make sure it is checked and every time a new dialogue comes up it automatically places the mouse on the default button which is usually something like the okay button. Thanks to EdMart (Ed Martineau) for that tip.

Lindsay

-------------------------

www.pcbyvoice.com
www.pcbyvoice.co.uk

Eric,

I'm not disrespecting Voice Power because I cannot dismiss something I haven't tried but I will lay money down that it will not beat a SmartNav or variants thereof where mouse commands are concerned as a SmartNav is instant and just like using your finger on a proper mouse.  Yes it's a little more expensive but so is DNS Pro.  Furthermore, when used in conjunction with DNS and KnowBrainer, it is simply the best hands free experience you will get in my opinion.

Plus, when used with some scripts using DNS Pro, you can do some amazing things just the same as an able-bodied person does, if not quicker.

Plus, I didn't have to pay for it :-)

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

As for fast mouse control, did you guys check out Utter Command? It uses rulers in combination with short coordinate commands. Once you get the hang of it, it's a pretty fast method for moving the mouse. The same goes for dragging the mouse. Check out the video on this page. Windows positioning and resizing is also a breeze with the program.

Tiger, it's well known that financial support for the disabled is much better on the other side of the pond then it is in the US. We could get into a pissing match until the cows come home, but that wouldn't serve any real purpose. In order to find the charity or government institution that would provide the financial support for something like this is much harder in the US because there are so many red tape hoops that you have to jump through. For example, US veterans of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan who are 100% disabled would probably have no trouble getting this hardware. On the other hand, I'm 30% disabled from Vietnam and I don't qualify, not that I'm financially strapped and couldn't get it for myself I wanted it.

Besides, what I said was "MOST", not "ALL". It isn't so much that someone who is, for example, quadriplegic couldn't find some financial support for such. It's just that the number of hoops and the amount of red tape involved in this country makes it extremely difficult. Regardless, you're playing on words here. You're in the UK and I'm in the US, and never the twain shall meet as far as who supports what and to what extent in the US. Come on over here and play the game of jumping through hoops in this country for a while and you would see what I mean. However, the bottom line is that you're reading too much into what I was trying to say.

We haven't put up the latest version videos yet. Nonetheless, consider Eric's response as a user of VoicePower. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Also, I didn't say that SmartNav wasn't an excellent product or that it didn't have some super features. So, don't make me laugh until you have and have used the VoicePower Mouse voice commands. Besides, what good would SmartNav who cannot move his head because he suffers from Lou Gehrig's disease like Stephen Hawking, but he still can't speak and enunciate clearly, and he plays games using VoicePower's Mouse voice commands very effectively.

The bottom line is I wasn't criticizing the value and features of SmartNav. Please show the same respect for VoicePower.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." -- Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)

-------------------------

Quote:

We haven't put up the latest version videos yet. Nonetheless, consider Eric's response as a user of VoicePower. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Chuck,

If you read my response to Eric, I did say I was not disrespecting Voice Power and could not comment on something I have not used and I'm sure it's good in its own right but I know enough to say that a SmartNav would smash the pants off Voice Power where mouse commands are concerned.  So in that respect, I do know what I'm talking about. 

The reason for that is the SmartNav is instant and like using the mouse normally as an able-bodied person would do with a real mouse.  Voice Power cannot do that so don't tell me it can and don't make me laugh.

Also, with a couple of scripts, using the SmartNav, I can also highlight text from Internet Explorer in an instant as fast as an able-bodied person can do.  This was one of the things that you told me in the Windows speech recognition forum I could not do.  So I do not need to try Voice Power as good as it may be because I don't need it and my hands-free experience is probably better than if I could use my hands.

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, how do you "wear" the mouse? Do you use the hat? Do you place a dot on yourselves? Do you place a dot on your headset? I abandoned the SmartNav because, in my opinion, it was "just another thing" to set up every time I needed to use the computer. I figure that with speech recognition, macros, and add-ons like the Vocal Joystick or Voice Finger, I could do all the mouse positioning that I needed with speech recognition (and, in the interest of full disclosure, a Kensington Trackball Mouse). I'm definitely willing to give the SmartNav another try, so what works for you?

Eric,

I place a dot on my nose but you can place it on the rim of a hat or put it between your eyes.  It's for you to experiment and choose what's best for you.  It takes less than 30 seconds to sit the SmartNav on top of the PC and the USB is plug and play so you just plug in.  Also, as Lindsay remarks, make sure you have the latest software that is on the website and is free.  Make sure you follow the rules below before you install the latest version:

Here’s quick instructions for installation:

Unplug your camera, and completely uninstall any old SmartNav software that maybe on your PC.
Download a new copy of the latest version of the SmartNav software, and save it to your desktop (note:  do not run from the downloader). 
It can be found here:

http://media.naturalpoint.com/software/SmartNAV_3.20.037.2.Final.exe  

Right click on the installer, and select "Run as administrator" (even if your account is an administrator). 
Finish the installation as normal, plug in your camera, and verify that drivers are properly installed via the device manager.
Run the software, and see if it works properly.

Quote:

Personally, I wouldn't care about it as long as I get the drink.

Come to think of it, I think I'll have the drink too :-).

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger,

My response to your post crossed yours, so I was unaware of your response when I wrote my original. It's not that I didn't read it, it's that I didn't see it at the time that I was composing my response. Had I seen it before I posted my response, I would have modified it accordingly. This is one of the problems with forums and posts is that very often we can post unintended responses because we don't see that to which another user is posting a response. I apologize, but that's what happened in this case.

That being said, I agree that hardware can be faster than software under most conditions. However, with VoicePower I can move the mouse and execute any mouse action in a single command from the lower right corner of the screen to the upper left corner of the screen, and anywhere in between, instantly. I can also use it on up to three screens. I can position the mouse by pixels or by grid coordinates and the mouse movements and mouse actions are instantaneous. However, I'm simply pointing that out, not comparing it to how quickly or efficiently SmartNav works or functions.

Regardless, whatever the variability is and/or differences between VoicePower and SmartNav in terms of speed and functionality is kind of a moot point. That is, it serves no useful purpose to argue unless we are both on the same page, which we are not. You have hands-on experience using SmartNav and I don't. On the other hand, I'm an expert with VoicePower's Mouse Voice and Copy/Paste commands and you don't have any direct hands-on experience with such. So, there's no way to compare the two except on the basis of opinion, which simply means that we should agree to disagree until such time as I have the free cash and inclination to try SmartNav.

As I indicated to Lindsay, I've seen SmartNav in action and I am impressed. But, like you, I have no need for it because VoicePower serves my needs just as effectively as SmartNav serves yours. So, let's simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." -- Douglas Adams

-------------------------

Chuck,

That's pretty cool and I'm sure it's great, however, that is not the natural movement of a mouse being used by an able-bodied person.  Natural point achieves this that's why it's called a 'Natural Point SmartNav.'  'Natural Point' also being the name of the company. 



This is true :-)



Did you not read my post above?  With one of the scripts in DNS Pro I am using in conjunction with SmartNav, I can select any amount of text from the web as fast as any able-bodied person can and then use the KnowBrainer command, "Copy to Word" or any of the other main Select-and-Say applications.  So I have plenty of experience here with copy and pasting.



Ditto having the free cash for Voice Power that on your website shows at $199 & $99.  So which one is it?

To be fair to you, I suppose I should try Voice Power to actually compare the two but there is little point really because as I said to you before, I can do most if not all that Voice Power can do already going by the videos on the website.

You never know though, one day I may take you up on the free trial and try it when I have got more time and inclination to learn all about another application.  As a permanent hands-free user, I'd be mad not to keep all my options open but at the moment, I'm happy with what I've got.  :-)

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Just FYI, the VoicePower copy and paste commands don't require any additional commands after selecting text. In addition, we can copy and paste text automatically into any document from a PDF file completely by voice or any other application window regardless of whether it is Full Text Control (Select-and-Say) enabled or not. Again, not trying to pick an argument, just clarifying a point. Also, VoicePower has its own built-in copy to . It doesn't require any modifications or scripting and it works out-of-the-box without requiring any user intervention or the use of any scripting language.

For example, I can open up a PDF document on the right and any application on the left, place the cursor in the application on the left and say "copy selection here" then I can select the text by voice using the "select through and VoicePower will automatically select and copy the text into whatever document I have open on the left. Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just curious as to how many steps it takes with SmartNav. In VoicePower, I don't have to say copy to . Whatever text is selected is copied wherever I want it automatically. I'll grant you that in terms of actually selecting text, I would expect that SmartNav is probably faster, but especially with PDF documents, you can't just select text and say copy it to Word because that doesn't work with PDF documents. You still have to mouse right-click on the selected text and select copy from the pop-up menu. Otherwise, it never gets copied to the clipboard. You don't have to do that with VoicePower. Just food for thought. I would be curious as to how many steps it takes with SmartNav and how well it works with PDF documents.

You're welcome to the trial at any time and I'd be more than happy to work with you on learning it. But at least keep in mind that VoicePower is not just a set of commands, it's a complete and reliable hands-free add-on that requires no programming experience. I seem to have to continually stressed that I'm not dismissing the capabilities or the efficiency of SmartNav. I think it's pretty impressive in terms of what I've seen. Nevertheless, using VoicePower I don't lose any productivity with regard to mouse function and/or commands. I work entirely hands-free I don't touch the keyboard or the mouse. Even if what I do adds a couple of seconds to the overall result, I don't see any distinct advantage in the long run because I rely on speech recognition to perform all of my totally hands-free.

To each his own, but it again serves no purpose to argue that my Maserati is faster than your Ferrari or vice versa. The bottom line is if it works for you then use it and "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"Good enough never is." - Debbi Fields: founder of Mrs. Fields Bakeries

-------------------------

That's great Chuck if you really want to strip the wording from a PDF file.  I very rarely want to do that but if I do, I just tried it with a PDF.  I can say, "Select the next <1-19 > lines" or "Select the next <1-19 > paragraphs and select the text that way then say "Copy to wherever" using KnowBrainer.  That's fast enough for me and does not warrant me spending $199 just to do that a that little bit faster.  Although I will say that is impressive. 



Funnily enough, getting scripts has not been a problem for me because there are many generous people in this forum who give them away and they do just as good a job as any other application and they don't cost me a penny.  All I have to do is ask :-)



Yes Chuck, I have seen the videos and I am not unimpressed.  That still doesn't warrant me paying out $199 to make it two seconds faster to strip the words from a PDF document or on the web.



It may take another step but I just timed myself copying and pasting to DragonPad selecting a block of text from the web and it took me all of six seconds.  That's fast enough for me and most people :-). 

Plus we know that the SmartNav is not meant for that purpose.  Its purpose is to be as natural as a normal mouse can be and this is something that Voice Power can never do.  That's why I said its use in conjunction with KnowBrainer and DNS can do enough for what I and most people want without the need to add another application.

 

I just told you about how I do it with PDF's above and I can say copy to and this does work despite you saying it doesn't.  I don't have to right click anything nor do I need the SmartNav to do this.  The SmartNav is simply the best way to move the mouse around anywhere on the screen naturally instead of popping about on the screen like a kangaroo.



Yes Chuck, great salesmanship and I have respectively said I am not unimpressed but as a disabled person who cannot touch the keyboard or screen, (which is a no-brainer) it just seems surplus to my needs at the moment.

If I ever decide that one day I may need it, then be sure, you'll be the first to know.

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Here is a simple Advanced Scripting command that moves the mouse cursor relative to the window by saying the coordinates as three digit numbers:

For (100, 500) say "one zero zero five zero zero"

For (0, 111) say "zero zero zero one one one"

There are a lot of ways to make this script fail, but I include the code to demonstrate what might be possible:

MyCommandName: <0-9><0-9><0-9><0-9><0-9><0-9>

You will need to create the <0-9> list:

0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

Here is the code:

Sub Main
    Dim x As String
    Dim y As String
    x = ListVar1 & ListVar2 & ListVar3
    y = ListVar4 & ListVar5 & ListVar6
    SetMousePosition 1, CInt(x), CInt(y)
End Sub
 

Thank you very much Alan for being so kind.  This is my point entirely about people helping out other people with scripts for free.  :-)

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger,

No disagreements whatsoever with anything that you've said. You can do anything with PDF documents coupled with the KnowBrainer copy to command. VoicePower just takes it a tiny bit further, which, per your post, you don't appear to need. That's fine. There are as many ways of doing just about anything as there are users, applications, and hardware that can be employed along with Dragon. Certainly there are many users who contribute their time and effort like Lindsay and Rüdiger et al. at no cost and that's certainly one of the benefits of this forum. My purpose in talking about VoicePower is not for soliciting sales, but just to expand on what VoicePower can do for those who may be interested. Lunis understands that.

VoicePower is a complete and comprehensive hands-free application using only speech when coupled with Dragon. Just as with KnowBrainer, not everyone uses all there is in VoicePower. We just make it simple to use Dragon hands-free via speech without any knowledge of programming or need to learn scripting. Even the VoiceShortcut macros are totally Wizard driven and take only 10 to 15 seconds to create and/or modify because they only require two entries. Perhaps the only drawback to VoicePower is that it is sometimes perceived as too all-inclusive, but there's a reason for that, which I won't attempt to justify here.

However, when it comes to individual features or functions, there are always, and always will be, developers that will come up with better mousetraps. You have found that combination that works best for you given the way that you work. That's all that's import and far be it from me to discredit that. I hope at least that we can see eye to eye on that.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see." -- Mark Twain

-------------------------

I hear ya Chuck and you never know, one day I may need Voice Power, just not at the moment.  I will never burn any bridges because as you say, I have never used it and only seen the videos.  I'm fine with what I've got at the moment and completely hands-free whether I like it or not.  :-)

That does not take anything away from me respecting you as a top expert on speech recognition.

Cheers

-------------------------

Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger,

Thank you for the kind words. That's the way we should all treat everyone on the forum all the time. That is, as Patrick Henry said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, sir, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

"A creative man is motivated by the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others." - Ayn Rand

-------------------------

Kurt

you can do this very easily with the Professional version or by adding on a third-party scripting engine (like KnowBrainer which is free for the disabled).  If you get your hands on either let me know and I will post the scripts to allow you to do this.  They will work up to as many pixels as you like so even if you have 4 displays at 2560 x 1440 you can still move the mouse in this way.  Funny you should mention that it is a bit like a game because it is initially but you become remarkably good at guessing the number of pixels you need to move for a particular distance.  They are invaluable commands so get yourself some scripting software (KnowBrainer, Vocola) or upgrade to Professional.

Lindsay

-------------------------

www.pcbyvoice.com
www.pcbyvoice.co.uk

Here's one that goes up to 500. That should be enough to make the cursor jump through the screen. The "Mouse" word has been replaced for "I" to avoid voice strain. So the commands will be: "I Down 400", "I Right 500", "I Left 350", "I Up 270" etc. Depending on other commands in your Command Browser, Dragon may rename this command to avoid conflicts, but that shouldn't be a problem.

How do I import this into my commands?

Very nice diligence and thank you :-)

None of these methods are as good as a SmartNav in my opinion where mouse commands are concerned but they are still very good and free :-). Sometimes I have used the KnowBrainer variant of this. They come in handy should I not use the SmartNav or it becomes out of use for any reason.

Cheers

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Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Hello Tiger feet,

The SmartNav yes, I read some contradicting customer reviews about it. I've been contemplating on buying it, although actually I cannot afford it. Here in Holland, health insurance won't cover anything related to RSI. I also would have to pay import taxes, which will make it extra expensive.
I have some questions:
How long did it take you to get fully customized to it? 
Can you compare it with using a regular mouse?
Isn't there a danger of developing RSI in your neck?
I read something about a "keeping the center centered" problem. I have some experience with camera mouse programs (using your WebCam as a head tracker), where the cursor never returned quite back into the center of the screen.
And finally, is there a money back guarantee, and is this reliable?

Regards,
dilligence

dilligence,

Let me answer your questions honestly one at a time in my opinion:

1.  Yes, it is not inexpensive compared to other software that is around that probably does more  than just move the mouse.  I was lucky in that a charity bought one for me when I came out of hospital.  That was in 2004 when DNS was frankly, unusable in my opinion then.  The SmartNav then was used to press a virtual keyboard on the screen, one letter at a time.  Doing this put me off in the beginning so I put it away in the cupboard and forgot about it. 

A few years later, I fund-raised for a computer and realised there was Windows Speech Recognition in Vista.  I tried it and could not believe how far speech recognition had come to when I was in hospital.  I then began to fund raise for Dragon 10.  Once I mastered that, Lindsay Adam (and I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning his name) mentioned that he had a SmartNav.  A light came on and I then realised I had one in the draw.

Now, using the SmartNav in conjunction with speech recognition and KnowBrainer of course (that Lunis kindly gave me and is free to all the disabled), it kind of put in the last piece of the puzzle if you like.  What I mean by that is, from a disabled person's point of view, I now can use the mouse just the same as an able-bodied person can, as naturally as it is meant to be used.  Remember, I don't use the clicker at all because it isn't needed.  You can use a SmartNav with Dragon.  Sometimes I just point it at anything on the screen and say "Mouseclick" because sometimes it is quicker to do it that way from a disabled perspective.  It is also much quicker and easier to just move the cursor over something that gives you information by doing that just as a normal mouse does. 

Lindsay also gave me a couple of scripts to use with the SmartNav where you say "Left Mouse Down."  Then you can select the wording from anywhere and highlight it just as quick as an able-bodied person can do it.  Once it is highlighted, you then say "Left Mouse Up" and it stops highlighting.  This piece of scripting would definitely come in handy for Phil Schaadt who says there is no easy way to highlight text.  With Lindsay's scripts, it's easy.  In my opinion this is brilliant and I'm sure if Lindsay reads this he will probably offer them to you because of the kind of person he is.  Then try it. 

2.  I mastered it very quickly, within a day or so.  It's not really rocket science; I wear the reflective dot on my nose and just move my nose to anywhere on the screen I want, as an able-bodied user would with his hand.  Apart from the advanced scripting commands used, you only have to remember two others really.  "Press F9" (that pauses the cursor) and "Press F12" (that centralises the cursor).

3.   Yes, as a disabled person who cannot use his hands, I can definitely say; using it compares to using a regular mouse.  In fact, I find it very natural and instant; the way a normal mouse is supposed to work.  With no disrespect to any other software and your advanced script for the mouse (which is basically how the others work), it is much quicker and instant and as I said earlier, natural.

4.  Regarding a danger of developing RSI in your neck.  I am a quadriplegic and I use it alongside speech recognition virtually every day and it has not caused me a problem yet.  As I said earlier, I have the spot on my nose and I can cover all four corners of the computer screen with very little movement from my head and neck. 

That said, if you have a condition such as Phil Schaadt mentions in his post in this thread, then I would say the SmartNav is probably not for you.  Then I agree that something like your advanced script or Voice Power (that has many more features included with it) would be the way to go.  I have not used Voice Power so I cannot comment on it professionally but I've heard it's very good and Chuck knows that too and it's a lot cheaper.  If on the other hand you do not have neck problems, then for me, this is the quickest, easiest and most natural way to use a mouse other than your hand.  In my opinion, as I've said before, it's as instant and easy as using a mouse the way an able-bodied person can if you haven't any problems with your neck (and I broke mine).


5.  Regarding keeping the cursor centred, sometimes the cursor will what they call 'swim.'  This means the cursor will naturally move even in some instances when a real mouse is still.  To centre it again using the SmartNav, you simply say, "Press F12" and the cursor is immediately centred again.  I believe the SmartNav is different to your WebCam program.  In fact, the software comes with a whole Control Panel where you can set it up exactly for your personal needs.  It has things in it such as 'Speed' and 'Gravity' and a whole lot more so that it works exactly for you and not against you.  I have the older version of the one shown in the hyperlink in one of my earlier posts in this thread.  They also have their own forums where you can ask any questions you need to ask.  They were very helpful to me and all I had to do was upgrade the software that I had to the latest version and that was free on their forums website.  Here is the link below:

http://forum.naturalpoint.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

6. Regarding a money back guarantee, the best way to check is on their forums first as I don't know the answer to that one.  I would have thought so as with anything you buy.  I could ask in the forums but as you mentioned you have neck problems, then it's probably not for you.  Your advanced script or Voice Power may be your answer to the mouse problem.

Sorry for the late and long post but these are my honest observations

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Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Chuck, the issue that I have is that I am stuck with "AJAX" style applications from several of my customers where first, there is no ability to select text or an object everything is purely relative location on the screen. Secondly, and most importantly, the reliability of any command software using DNS i.e. VoicePower is intermittent at best and usually triggers "Samurai Command Mode" after just a few commands.

To make matters worse several of these applications are only accessible via a Citrix virtual system.

As TigerFeet pointed out about the differences between mechanically controlling the mouse pointer when there is no text to select and controlling by voice if there is something that can be selected via text then the VoicePower voice mouse works great.

Due to "Samurai Command Mode" I'm stuck using Voice Finger and WSR for clicking and then mechanically moving the mouse which is really suboptimal because I need to switch back and forth between mouse control with WSR and dictation with DNS. even if the command "Drag to <x> at <y>" didn't trigger samurai command mode, any misfire loses an important file to anyone of a potentially 100+locations with virtually no global search capabilities to find where it went.

as I said this is quite unique and not applicable to most folks work flow. Hence I always recommend VoicePower for any serious user of DNS.

Phil Schaadt

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DNS12 Pro BM V Large Vocabulary plus KB or Voice Computer running Win7 64 bit machines with i7-2640M to i7-3960x and i7-3770K processors plus a Sony VAIO Windows 8 machine. DBX Audio Gate with Allen&Heath mixer/USB Audio; Andrea PureAudio USB  usually with Airline 77 or Audio-Technica but also Sennheiser MD431 II, theBoom, et. al.

Thanks Tiger feet,

it's been a couple of weeks since I last visited this forum. And I just read your comprehensive reply.
I'm going to think some more about buying the smartnav.

thanks again

Here's my experience with the Smart Nav equipment.

I bought it based on Tiger Feet’s recommendation. Because of my company, cost is not an issue. I have a fair number of pinched nerves in my neck, shoulders and hands so that mousing is tough for me. Clicking the mouse is actually the most painful and I use a Swedish company’s mouse, “perific”, which unfortunately is no longer made, along with “mouse click” DNS commands.

I have VoicePower and KnowBrainer but my use for the technology like Smart Nav is for moving around AJAX style applications in a browser or Citrix applications where there is no easy to highlight text. I have a fair number of these that I must use because they are customer applications. So for example, if I need to move a file or object between two points on the screen, the best I've been able to do is with Voice Finger using the commands "Mark left" and then manually dragging the object but without the need to hold down the mouse button.

Smart Nav is a well-made product and really only takes about a day to get comfortable with it.

Unfortunately for me, the extra neck movements do aggravate my pinched nerves so I can't really use it for very long. On the other hand one of the other people in our office who also uses DNS has no problem using it even though she has considerable neck and shoulder damage from an auto accident.

Given my usage the "keeping the center problem" doesn't really bother me but there are a variety of settings to return the cursor to a specific point if that's what you need.

I use the silver dot on my glasses on a 30 inch screen and the positioning was quite reliable.

If you can actually still use a mouse with your hands and arms I think you'll find this product to not be a complete substitute for a mouse. Even if I didn't have the neck problems that limit the amount of time I can use this product, is not completely equivalent to the traditional mouse. On the other hand if you don't have neck problems and can't really use a mouse I would view it as an effective substitute.

The cost of two way shipping is going to make returning it quite expensive.

Phil Schaadt

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DNS12 Pro BM V Large Vocabulary plus KB or Voice Computer running Win7 64 bit machines with i7-2640M to i7-3960x and i7-3770K processors plus a Sony VAIO Windows 8 machine. DBX Audio Gate with Allen&Heath mixer/USB Audio; Andrea PureAudio USB  usually with Airline 77 or Audio-Technica but also Sennheiser MD431 II, theBoom, et. al.

Open command browser - Manage - Import - browse to the file - select type of file: MyCommands files (.xml) click open.

Thanks Phil,
That's enough information for me. I'm quite sensitive to neck problems so I don't think this is going to be a real option for me yet, I can still use the mouse a little, not for long though.
Shipping costs won't be paid back if I return the product, did some reading on the SmartNav website.
I've been reading some more about the device on the SmartNav forum. I'm getting a 50/50 feeling about this product, I'm not convinced and at this point I find this device far too expensive.

I poked at it a year ago and found it a little strange. Maybe I'll give it a second try but many of their pdf documentation links are broken. You can search the forum for several threads on Utter Commands.

Given the cost of Utter Command I would recommend contacting Chucker and asking for a free trial of Voice Power. I own VP and use it all the time. For most people it is a highly productive extension. I have a quite specialized and narrow set of important needs re mousing that are not easily met by VP but you should compare Utter to VP before you buy either.

Phil Schaadt

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DNS12 Pro BM V Large Vocabulary plus KB or Voice Computer running Win7 64 bit machines with i7-2640M to i7-3960x and i7-3770K processors plus a Sony VAIO Windows 8 machine. DBX Audio Gate with Allen&Heath mixer/USB Audio; Andrea PureAudio USB  usually with Airline 77 or Audio-Technica but also Sennheiser MD431 II, theBoom, et. al.

Phil,

I'm just curious what needs as far as mouse commands are not easily met by VoicePower? And, what version of VoicePower are you currently using?

I would be willing to bet that you're not making full use of what's available. There is virtually nothing that I can't do with the Mouse Voice commands in VoicePower easily and quickly in a single command.

For anyone else who's interested, all you have to do is to go to the VoicePower website (http://www.voicecomputer.com/) and request a free trial (full working version 10 day free trial) on the first page.

Chuck Runquist
Technical Project Manager
VoiceTeach LLC
Home of VoicePower®: We don't make Dragon NaturallySpeaking, We make it better!

Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't. - Pete Seeger

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There are easy ways to highlight (select) text by voice.

 

Selecting text is one of those tasks that you may be able to perform faster and easier by voice than a non-disabled user can with a mouse.

 

Here is the command: select XYZ through XYZ.

 

If this posting was in a word processor, and I wanted to select the entire quotation, all I would need to say is select Lindsay through text period. The cursor doesn't even have to be in the paragraph I want to select.

 

There are limitations, to be sure. Select XYZ through XYZ is only available in certain word processors, text editors, and edit fields; and only works for text that is visible in the viewport. Nevertheless, it's fantastic to have a command that totally eliminates the need to precisely target a mouse cursor at the start of the selection process, and again at the end of it.

 

Using DNS with a mouse-centric perspective is like thinking a word processor is like a typewriter. One can still do what you need to do, but tasks are going to take more time and energy, and there is the potential to make more errors during the process.

Alan,

Yes I know there are easy ways to highlight (select) text by voice by saying select XYZ through XYZ in certain text editors and when I am in those text editors, that is the way I do it.

But you try and do that with wording from the web or from a PDF document or a non-Select-and-Say document and you will not be able to do it. With Dragon, you have to do it the old-fashioned way and put the cursor in front of the text you want to highlight and then say 'drag mouse down' which takes forever.

To extract wording from the web or from a PDF file, or a non-select and say programme, all I have to do is point the SmartNav at the wording I want to select and then say 'Left Mouse Down' and when I have finished selecting the selection, I then say 'Left Mouse Up.' I can do that as fast or if not faster than an able-bodied person can with a normal mouse. That's where your commands 'selecting through' fall short. Voice Power can also do this I believe almost instantly which is pretty nifty.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the other thing a SmartNav can do instantly in real-time, just as an able-bodied person can do with a real mouse is hover the cursor over anything on the computer that gives you information without actually clicking the mouse. That is the quickest and most natural way to overcome something like that.

As I say, I feel using it in conjunction with speech recognition (not on its own) completes my experience of being able to do everything hands-free on the computer. Yes, you can do lots of things with your voice without the SmartNav but the ones I have mentioned above you cannot unless you use a purpose made add-on such as Voice Power. Also, it normalises the way a mouse is supposed to be used without bobbing about the screen.

I also disagree with you in some instances where you say using the mouse is thinking a word processor and takes longer. There are some instances where it is quicker to use the SmartNav, re: the examples I have pointed out. There are also examples where it is quicker to use speech recognition. That's why combining the two, completes my experience in my opinion. Plus it is the most natural way to use the mouse and is instant.

Everyone will have different viewpoints on the subject so it all depends on the individual using it really what they think of its potential.

Cheers

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Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Tiger,

It pleases me to see that someone understands what VoicePower can do as far as selecting text in non-Full Text Control (Select and Say) application windows. Thank you. It sounds better than if it comes from me.

For the benefit of everyone else, there are only a couple of distinctions between SmartNav and VoicePower:

1. Obviously, VoicePower does this entirely by voice command using commands in VoicePower that mimic the select through , as well as select all, select page, as well as "copy selection here" if you're wanting to copy and paste into a particular application window without changing focus on the window in which you wish to paste the text that you're copying, "selecttext2copy" followed by saying "copy to or simply opening and pasting the text into any particular application window, an additional command that allows you to "paste selection here" which copies all of the text in a specific document, regardless of the number of pages and irrespective of whether those pages are visible or not, into a file and opens it in WordPad for easier selection, and finally "copy pages here", which does the same as the previous command, though in a slightly different manner.

2. The only other advantage of VoicePower is that, no matter what application window you are selecting text from, VoicePower it ignores all graphics. This can be useful in situations where selecting by mouse or selecting by SmartNav can't avoid selecting graphics and images. To repeat, VoicePower ignores all graphics and images in its voice copy and paste commands.

The bottom line is that SmartNav and VoicePower are not only hands-free methods, but they both run circles around what you can and can't do in copying text from any window via Dragon alone, or even, to a greater or lesser extent, with KnowBrainer. However, don't get me wrong because I'm not slamming KnowBrainer. I use KnowBrainer also. The difference is that I use each for its own advantages. The difference here is that VoicePower does things that KnowBrainer can't and vice versa.

Regardless, my thanks to Tiger for very clearly and very succinctly noting the advantages of VoicePower and SmartNav vs. Dragon and/or manually using the mouse by hand.

Chuck

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without one." -  Chinese Proverb

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In answer to that one, this is how I get over it quite simply.  I select text even if they run over graphics using the SmartNav and Lindsay's scripts.  Then I use KnowBrainer's 'Copy to Notepad' command. 

Everything will then be copied to Notepad in one single command except the graphics because Notepad does not accept graphics.  From here, I just copy the wording to whatever text editor I want by using KnowBrainer's 'Copy to (whatever editor, well the most common ones). 

It may be an extra command to put it into the editor of my choice but it's pretty quick and gets me round that problem.

 Cheers

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Tiger Feet

| DNS 12 Professional | KnowBrainer 2012 | Windows 7 Professional /64 Bit | Intel Core i7 Quad Core 3840QM (2.80GHz) 8MB | 16GB RAM. | 240GB Intel 520 Series SSD Boot Drive | 750GB 7200 rpm Secondary Drive  | Plantronics Wireless Handsfree Microphone CS60-USB. |

Thanks to everyone for all the great info!
Kurt (OP)

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DNS rocks exhalation point

DNS 11.5, Intel Quad core i7 2600-k 3.40