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What am I doing wrong?

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What am I doing wrong? - RehabDoc - 07/05/2007 11:59 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - bmac - 07/06/2007 12:37 AM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - mcampbell - 07/06/2007 10:51 AM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Willi - 07/06/2007 12:06 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - DSteiNeuro - 07/06/2007 03:04 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - RehabDoc - 07/06/2007 04:19 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - DSteiNeuro - 07/06/2007 05:25 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Lunis Orcutt - 07/06/2007 10:45 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - DSteiNeuro - 07/07/2007 12:49 AM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Willi - 07/07/2007 10:34 AM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - DSteiNeuro - 07/06/2007 02:59 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Lunis Orcutt - 07/06/2007 09:51 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Scribble - 07/08/2007 08:08 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Chucker - 07/08/2007 08:40 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Scribble - 07/08/2007 09:41 PM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Chucker - 07/09/2007 04:02 AM - ( Page 1 )
RE: What am I doing wrong? - Scribble - 07/09/2007 06:39 PM - ( Page 1 )

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RehabDoc
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Posted : Thursday 07/05/2007 11:59 PM

Group : New Member
Active : 07/06/2007 @ 04:19 PM
Posts : 6
Hi, all.

As the summary line says, I've been using DNS for my office notes for six weeks now.  The computer system is working well, but I'm so incredibly slow.   It's getting ridiculous, and I'm tired of spending my free time working on dictation.  I'm ok with my notes taking a little longer than dictating into my dictaphone, but two-three hours (or more) of dictating for one day's notes is driving me nuts.

I've identified two major problems, and any input would be very welcome.  

1.  Small words (and, in, he, she, a, the, etc.) consistently get transcribed wrong.  I have tried correcting the errors using the "spell that" command, but have had minimal improvement in preventing the same errors again.  I frequently listen to playback and have no trouble understanding what I said (of course, there are times when I can understand why the word was transcribed wrong, but this is certainly not always the case).

2.  Moving through templates takes way too long.  I currently have templates marked with sequential fields [01], [02], etc.  I dictate "Field 1" and the cursor (sometimes) moves to the correct field.  I don't know if there's a better way????

If you have any suggestions, I'd welcome them.  But, please, use small words, and don't assume much (if any) knowledge on my part.  I'm discovering that I'm kind of an idiot when it comes to this stuff.

Thanks in advance!!!
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bmac
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 12:37 AM

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Active : 07/27/2010 @ 08:23 PM
Posts : 222

I wish there was some help around the corner with #1 in your post.  This has been my #1 problem at least for the last 2 versions.  Like you, I have tried to train DNS but I've come to the conclusion that Nuance put the Spell That function in there just to make us believe something is happening - like a placebo.

The experts here will tell you to train these words in combination with other words - in phrases.  Quite honestly, I haven't found this to work.  They will also say to make sure you are using the best mic (and audio card).  I think part of my problem is the somewhat weak audio card built into my Toshiba M200 laptop.  I've tried to get around that by using USB microphones such as the Phillips SpeechMike.

'and', 'in', and 'an' do some different the way I enunciate them yet DNS just does not want to cooperate.  


Bill
DNS Pro v10.1, KB 2008, M700 Toshiba tablet PC, Windows 7 ultimate 64-bit, 6 GB RAM, 160 GB Intel SSD, 320 GB secondary hard drive, xTag, Philips SpeechMike, MS Office 2010 Professional
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mcampbell
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 10:51 AM

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Active : 07/29/2010 @ 09:57 AM
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you are doing anything "wrong".  This program works extremely well however it is resource intensive.  If you are dictating into a database that utilizes a lot of resources you'll find everything slowing down.  DNS 9.5, with a more powerful computers helps with this alot; however, you should find yourself dictating faster than real time if you use macros that can help navigate within your database and load predetermined template that you adjust using voice.  A complex internal medicine patient should take about this long based on the level of charge:

level 3 should take about 2-3 minutes

level 4 should take about 3-4 minutes

level 5 should take about 5 minutes.  This includes updating the medication list and having written instructions and predetermined level order forms for the patient.

 I been using voice recognition for about 15 years now, starting with the old-style discrete speech Kurzweil and as you develop your own shortcuts [a lot of these macros can be designed to take the nagging "little words" out of the picture] you should fine your speed increasing dramatically [to say nothing of the increased reimbursement for documenting accurately everything that you really done with an office visit and what you're really worth.

 good luck

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Willi
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 12:06 PM

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Posts : 38

I am surprized that Lunis has not jumped in yet with his special solution: add phrases to your vocabulary. This is the only way to help the Dragon with the small words.

Just look at it this way: whenever your Dragon makes a mistake, he needs your help. And the help must be to extend the acoustical signals representing the words.

And phrases do have more acoustical information than small words.

Training in context is ok, but adding phrases is much better.

With the best wishes from Augsburg/Bavaria

Willi

 

 


Willi SanderOfficeAutomation Sanderwww.oa-sa.de 
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DSteiNeuro
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 02:59 PM


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Active : 02/08/2009 @ 01:42 PM
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Date Last Edited : 07/06/2007
Time Last Edited : 03:10 PM

Rehab Doc,

It sounds like you are struggling (which might be the problem).

I might help to let us know your setup in as much detail as possible- hardware, microphone, work environment, EMR?, templates.....

Overall, the most important factor affection SR recognition is dictation technique. This is especially important for small words. I think that this might be even more important for DNS 9, which uses the advanced n-gram models.

If you are tired and struggling, you are going to have poor recognition. I know that on days that I am tired or rushed, my accuracy can significantly deteriorate.

Hints:

1) Maximize your hardware.
2) Maximize your work environment. Try to dictate in a quiet relaxed environment.
If you start having a lot of problems/mistakes- take a break.
3) Maximize your User File. After six weeks, your technique is going to be a lot better- might be time to
start with a new User File.
(See comments elsewhere on User Files and trainging).
4) Maximize your SR dictation style- smooth fluent phrases.
5) Maximze your workflow- develope good templates and macro automation.

The above takes time. The use of a good VAR can go a long way!

 Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

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DSteiNeuro
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 03:04 PM


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Date Last Edited : 07/06/2007
Time Last Edited : 03:06 PM

In this case (small words - and, in, he, she, a, the, etc.), adding phrases is not likely to help.
This is because there are thousands of phrases involving small words.

Likewise there is no point in training single words.

Adding a phrase will help for that particular phrase, but most likely will decrease recognition for that particular small word. For example, if you add "He said" recognition might increase for "He said", but will decrease for "She said" or "He had" or .....

Once again, the most important factor is good dictation technique. Dictate in smooth fluent phrases and take time to enunciate.

 

 

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RehabDoc
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 04:19 PM

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Active : 07/06/2007 @ 04:19 PM
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Thanks for the responses, folks.  I really appreciate them. 

 To answer some questions:  My setup is a 13" MacBook with 2Gb RAM, 4Mb cache, running Windows XP on BootCamp.  Using MS Word, DNS 9.5 with Knowbrainer, Andrea external Soundcard, the Boom mic.  I dictate in my office (quiet, with door closed) and at home (quiet).  No real change in results in either environment.  No EMR yet, just generating notes.

I have several templates, for different types of notes.  Each is a Word document with numbered fields ([01]), which I move through with a command ("field one", etc.). 

 Very few macros so far.  I don't dictate the same things very often (general rehab practice, seeing kids to adults, back pain to brain injury).  I have macros/templates for my few procedures.

 I'm not a programmer (at all), and am very intimidated by writing complicated macros.  I have seen references to books on here, but are there any intro-to-writing-macros for DNS sources that could help me get a better feel for it first?

 Thanks again!

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DSteiNeuro
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 05:25 PM


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Date Last Edited : 07/06/2007
Time Last Edited : 05:29 PM

Quote:
To answer some questions:  My setup is a 13" MacBook with 2Gb RAM, 4Mb cache, running Windows XP on BootCamp.  Using MS Word, DNS 9.5 with Knowbrainer, Andrea external Soundcard, the Boom mic. 

I would consider this a less than optimal setup for serious workflow production.
Although DNS will work on a MacBook with Bootcamp, it is really designed for a PC.

I would also question the Andrea external soundcard, most reports of the Andrea Soundcards are less than optimal for use with DNS. This is probably your problem with small words as well as SR speed. The microphone experts will help you here.

Finally, I love my 12" Tosihba Laptop but it is not optimal for work production. Maybe a quick dictation done at home but not for 2-3 hours of report preparation. For work production, I dictate using two High Resolution Sony 21" Monitors.

Bottom line is how much is your time worth? If you are serious about using DNS for work production, get the right hardware. The Intel Core 2 Duos/Quads are the biggest bang for the buck for SR in a long time. 

 

Quote:
I dictate in my office (quiet, with door closed) and at home (quiet).  No real change in results in either environment.  No EMR yet, just generating notes.

Sounds good here.

Quote:
I have several templates, for different types of notes.  Each is a Word document with numbered fields ([01]), which I move through with a command ("field one", etc.).

Very few macros so far.  I don't dictate the same things very often (general rehab practice, seeing kids to adults, back pain to brain injury).  I have macros/templates for my few procedures.

The trick to templates is Automation. Right now, you are using very basic templates. It also sounds as if they are sluggish on your MacBook. You should be able to move from field to field almost instantly.

Quote:
I'm not a programmer (at all), and am very intimidated by writing complicated macros.  I have seen references to books on here, but are there any intro-to-writing-macros for DNS sources that could help me get a better feel for it first?

You have two options here. The first is to pay a VAR to help write some custom templates for you. This probably won't be cheap, but will be cost effective in the long run.

The second option is to write your own. Again a bit of a learning curve but you probably can get a lot of help on the forums. Bottom line here is that you have to enjoy writing the code and making it work. Before everyone else jumps in, the best starting place is:

Scripting for Dragon NaturallySpeaking® 9A Guide to Advanced Scripting for Dragon NaturallySpeaking® 9

by Larry V. Allen

So to answer your original question, you probably are not doing anything wrong but there is a lot that you can do to increase your productivity using DNS.

 

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Lunis Orcutt
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 09:51 PM


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Date Last Edited : 07/06/2007
Time Last Edited : 09:53 PM
A lot of good advice has already been administered so we will try to answer your remaining questions:
 
For the most part, spending time correcting and/or training small words is completely useless.  Example: If you dictate “an Andrea Electronics USB Pod” NaturallySpeaking will probably type something like “and Andrea electronics USB pot” (note the 3 errors in red). Correcting these 3 errors will not only be a waste of time but could actually do more harm than good. Example: NaturallySpeaking can't possibly tell the difference between “and” versus “an” and if you try to train the words, you could actually teach NaturallySpeaking a bad habit.  NaturallySpeaking isn't going to know that the “e” in electronic should be capitalized when combined with the word Andrea because it's a company name and NaturallySpeaking loves to type “pot” in place of “pod”.  Your grammar and spell checker won't catch the error but your mother-in-law won't miss it ;-).  This may not explain all of your small word problems but the only way to make the phrase “an Andrea Electronics USB Pod” bullet proof is to either add the entire phrase to your vocabulary or do what we did and break it into “an Andrea”, “Andrea Electronics” and “USB Pod”. Then add all 3 of those phrases into your vocabulary via our Add to Vocabulary command.
 
You should additionally run about 200 pages of documents, that are in your own style of writing, through the Vocabulary Builder.  If you hadn't done this, do so immediately because this utility is extremely important.
 
There are a number of ways to move through various fields but it depends on what program you are using and what types of commands you are using.  Sometimes the simplest way to handle adjacent field jumping is to add the feature into a hotkey.  For example: KnowBrainer includes a command that will jump from one field to the next by saying Next Marker. Although this command will work, you can get the job done about 3 times faster by programming a hotkey that presses {F11}.


                                  Developer of KnowBrainer 2008
                     Nuance
NaturallySpeaking Certified BBB Accredited 
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Lunis Orcutt
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Posted : Friday 07/06/2007 10:45 PM


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Date Last Edited : 07/06/2007
Time Last Edited : 10:47 PM
Quote:
I would also question the Andrea external soundcard, most reports of the Andrea Soundcards are less than optimal for use with DNS. This is probably your problem with small words as well as SR speed. The microphone experts will help you here.
 
If you don't mind us asking, where did you get this information from?  We originally tested soundcards with DragonDictate and later for NaturallySpeaking for well over a decade.  We were unable to ascertain the slightest difference between the Buddy, GN Netcom, VXI, Andrea USB Pods and Sound Blaster cards.  From a speech recognition perspective, all of these cards are equal in quality.  The only differences between these soundcards are the amenities such as full duplex versus half duplex etc.  We suspect that Marty will back our test results.


                                  Developer of KnowBrainer 2008
                     Nuance
NaturallySpeaking Certified BBB Accredited 
                              Speech Recognition Solutions Provider
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DSteiNeuro
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Posted : Saturday 07/07/2007 12:49 AM


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Opps, my mistake. The Andrea Pod is of coarse fine.

I was thinking of another Pod. Good thing I deferred on this one <g>.

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Willi
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Posted : Saturday 07/07/2007 10:34 AM

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Active : 04/04/2009 @ 12:30 AM
Posts : 38

so what's wrong with adding thousands of phrases? The acoustical content of "he said" versus "she said" or "he had" is always more informative than the small words alone. For our customized vocabs we use a tool listing the 2- or 3-word-combinations in the frequency order they occur in the customer's texts and add the most frequent ones to the vocab. Works great for many users, in addition to a good dictation style of course.

Willi

 

 

 


Willi SanderOfficeAutomation Sanderwww.oa-sa.de 
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Scribble
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Posted : Sunday 07/08/2007 08:08 PM

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If you do not use the recording of your dictation, go to Options, Data and set the "Disc space reserved for playback" to zero, instead of the default 40 MB.
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Chucker
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Posted : Sunday 07/08/2007 08:40 PM


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Date Last Edited : 07/08/2007
Time Last Edited : 08:43 PM

Quote:

If you do not use the recording of your dictation, go to Options, Data and set the "Disc space reserved for playback" to zero, instead of the default 40 MB.

You bring up a good point. This is ideal for people like you and myself who do not save dictation with documents. However, there are couple of caveats to this approach.

1. If you set the "Disk space reserved for playback" to zero instead of the default 40 MB, then you are relying on the DNS speech buffer to store your playback. The problem with this is that if the speech buffer reaches its limit, DNS starts removing speech data from the buffer beginning with your earliest recorded utterances. What this means is that if you are dictating a very long document, playback within the document will be limited to your last approximately 100 utterances. Therefore, if you dictate 20 pages, only the last 100 utterances will be available in that document for playback. The result will be that at a certain point speech data will not be available until you save the document with a linked dra file and reopen it. Not a problem for most. However, if you want to playback your dictation on page 1, it won't be available under this setting until or unless you save the document with your dictation. In other words, if you want to go back to page 1 and make a correction, the playback will not be available, and will only be available up to the point of your last 100 utterances if you haven't saved your document with the dictation dra file.

2. I've never experimented with this, but there may be other issues relative to the fact that it may effectively disable the "Always preserve wave file data" in the Advanced settings. Nevertheless, this is definitely one way of preventing the prompt that WayneE was concerned about in that post on the ScanSoft public forum.

Therefore, you would have to experiment with this further to determine what the ultimate consequent effect might be.

Chuck Runquist
Former DNS SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS

If you hear the sound of hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.
Law of Parsimony (Occam's razor)


Core2™ Extreme QX9650,  5 Core2™ Duo’s 2.0 GHz-3.06 GHz, Core™ i7 980X Extreme, DDR2 RAM 4 GB 1066 MHz Core2™ Duo systems, DDR3 12 GB 2000 MHz Core™ i7, VelociRaptor 10,000 RPM boot drives all systems.
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Scribble
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Posted : Sunday 07/08/2007 09:41 PM

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I NEVER want to listen to what I have dictated, and my guess is that this applies to many users of DNS who have not discovered that they can work much faster of the disc space reserved for playback" is set to zero.
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Chucker
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Posted : Monday 07/09/2007 04:02 AM


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Date Last Edited : 07/09/2007
Time Last Edited : 04:09 AM
Quote:

I NEVER want to listen to what I have dictated, and my guess is that this applies to many users of DNS who have not discovered that they can work much faster of the disc space reserved for playback" is set to zero.

That setting doesn't necessarily improve speed or performance.  The space reserved for playback is treated as a "cache."  As such, the only impact that it has at all on performance (speed) is if the user has "Save recorded dictation with document" set to either Ask me or Always.  Otherwise, it generally has no effect on speed or performance.  Reserving that disk space results in anything written to that space being done on-the-fly as you dictate on an utterance by utterance basis when the speech buffer limit has been exceeded.  Since you're only writing every now and then, the fact that that disk space is treated as a "cache" has little impact.

The only benefit at all in terms of speed or performance is that it eliminates the caution, or warning, about exceeding the space available for speech data and the delay in restoring speech data when switching documents.  However, the latter is only impacted if the user is saving their dictation to a dra file.

In other words, all that setting does is to save the overflow in the speech buffer.  However, since it doesn't save large amounts of speech data when writing to it, the writes to that disk cache are insignificant.  For example, I never save my dictation speech data with my documents but I have that "Disk space reserved for playback" set to 500 MB just in case I need it.  Doing so never ever slows down the performance on my system.  The developers designed it that way so that it would not slow down performance while preserving your dictation audio.

Understand that I'm not saying this is not a valid setting for some users under some conditions.  What I'm saying is that your assumption about increasing speed or performance is incorrect.  I load and run my users from a thumb drive (USB flash drive).  If what you were saying were correct, I should be taking a significantly greater performance hit because reading and writing to flash drives is slower than reading or writing to a hard drive.  My dictation is instantaneous in DNS 9.5 whether I'm working on Windows XP or Windows Vista and never varies regardless of the settings.  Whether I have that setting to 0 or 500 MB the performance of DNS on my systems never varies.  If it did, then I would set the disk space reserved for playback to 0.

Chuck Runquist
Former Dragon NaturallySpeaking SDK & Senior Technical Solutions PM for DNS

It is not so much my confidence that scientists will get it right as it is my confidence that nonscientists will get it wrong.  Isaac Asimov

To which I add my own version, "I am not so confident that technically oriented people will get it right as it is my confidence that non-technically oriented people will get it wrong."


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Scribble
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Posted : Monday 07/09/2007 06:39 PM

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Thanks for your feedback. Since I have observed a very considerable increase in performance rather than simply made an 'assumption about increasing speed or performance' and assuming that you are correct that this cannot happen with DNS alone, it seems likely that it is occuring because I am running 'Express Scribe' (ES) at the same time. ES plays a recorded voice file concurrently and/or sequentially with my dictating into DNS. When memory is allocated to record my dictation, substantial delays can occur in the response of both ES and DNS, but when the memory allocation for my dictation is set to zero, the performance is much improved. I will do a test to see whether there is a loss of performance when I am not using ES when I get a little more time.
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